39 replies to this topic

[domsim]

Hi Alan

oops yes my mistake -it is Lee without a hat we need a picture of.

Thanks
Dominic

[Barry Hayes]

This will add to the certainty that the bald bloke is not Smith. His daughters are the ones to believe.
I followed Baldy up with AWM, who were still publishing the photo as Smith at the time.
Because Neville said the photo was wrong - well - who would agrue with Neville!
AWM agreed, but it was all too hard.
Smith said Gordon was killed by ground fire as they went down to look, and as there was no other plane on their tail, that was the most likely.
All the same, Lawrence Smith was an inveterate story teller, and how he would have survived hanging by his seat belt from 1000' and land on his feet is interesting. Yet he said he didn't know Gordon was shot through the head at the time because he was unconsious.
He did become friends with Victor Haefner, including later by correspondence. Haefner asked him to lend him some money after the war because life was grim in Germany. Smith had told him he was doing well on a sheep property, and had 100,000 bales of wool. No wonder Haefner though he could lend him a few pounds. Lawrence did work on sheep properties, but they were'nt his of course.
There is a photo of Smith after the war, still with lots of hair, in Billy Stutt and the Richmond Flyboys.
Regards to Alan, and Corporal.
Barry Hayes, Nev's brother.

[domsim]

Barry Hayes, on 15 October 2010 - 12:59 PM, said:

Smith said Gordon was killed by ground fire as they went down to look, and as there was no other plane on their tail, that was the most likely.

Hi Barry

Thanks for your reply and additional information, your comment above reminded me of an unpleasant thought i had when I read the Combat In the Air Report filed by Capt.A.R. Brown who was the pilot of the other Bristol Fighter with Oxenham and Smith. A lot of what is in Brown's report contradicts details of Smith's various versions but what struck me most was that Brown says his observer, Lt. G.Finlay was firing at the enemy aircraft after it landed on the ground and the crew hand run away from the aircraft. I wonder if there is a possibility of an unfortunate 'friendly fire' incident?

All the best
Dominic

Attached Files

•  CITAR Kutrani 26061918.jpg   98.01K   5 downloads

[alfox]

Morning Dominic,

The possibility of a "friendly fire" incident had occured to me.  Both Brown and Finlay told the Board of Enquiry into the incident  that Oxenham and Smith "passed under their wing".

However, although there are several Smith versions of the event, he is consistent on one thing:  He always maintained that Brown and Finlay never at any time became involved in the battle.  But if he was concentrating on shooting the German plane, he wouldn't necessarily know for sure.

I think I'd rather give Brown and Finlay the benefit of the doubt.  The alternative is that they were liars and incompetent and I don't think for a minute that they were either.

In any event, we'll never know for sure and it probably doesn't matter.  It was 92 years ago.  Bad stuff happens in war and the best we can do is remember the sacrifice of those who didn't come back; no matter how they died.  

Hello to Barry; nice to hear from you.

Regards,

Alan Oxenham

[domsim]

Hi alan

I totally agree with you, they were all brave men and it was a long time ago and in the end what matters is trying to locate one them and give him a memorial. Good luck.

All the best
Dominic

[domsim]

anybody who wants to see a picture of Laurence Smith after his capture can see a copy here at the Cross & Cockade forum:
Laurence Smith

I posted the reply and Alan's photo is the same but shows German and Turkish pilots surrounding Smith.

All the best
Dominic

[Kale Gordon Oxenham]

Alan Oxenham. My dads name is Gordon Vincent Oxenham 4th and his great uncle is Lt Gordon Vincent Oxenham.

[domsim]

Hi Alan & Kate
I have been doing a bit more digging on Gordon as I noticed in his Red Cross file, available from the Australian War Memorial site that he is mentioned in a couple of other men’s files. From these files it is clear that enquiries about Gordon were made to the Imperial War Graves Committee and the newly established   Australian Graves Service by the Australian Red Cross in October 1919. One of the replies is from the burials officer of the Australian Graves Service, Lieutenant Quentin Spedding, who had a file with references to Oxenham mentioned in the letters (I wonder if this still exists somewhere?)
I think what is clear from this exchange is that the Red Cross were seeking information about Gordon’s grave but that the War Graves Committee and the Graves Service were unaware of the location. This was because all the location information was with the Red Cross who never passed this information on to the graves services. Maybe they assumed this had already been done or they simply didn’t realise the mistake?  
I can send copies of the letters from the other files if you are interested.  I may go up to Maidenhead to check the CWGC file on German burials in Jordan I mentioned earlier (if you have not already checked this Alan?)
All the best
Dominic

[alfox]

Kale Gordon Oxenham, on 10 June 2012 - 12:50 PM, said:

Alan Oxenham. My dads name is Gordon Vincent Oxenham 4th and his great uncle is Lt Gordon Vincent Oxenham.

Hi Kate,

That means we're related.  I'm a shade vague on exactly how though.

Regards,

Alan

[alfox]

domsim, on 18 June 2012 - 09:22 AM, said:

Hi Alan & Kate
I have been doing a bit more digging on Gordon as I noticed in his Red Cross file, available from the Australian War Memorial site that he is mentioned in a couple of other men’s files. From these files it is clear that enquiries about Gordon were made to the Imperial War Graves Committee and the newly established   Australian Graves Service by the Australian Red Cross in October 1919. One of the replies is from the burials officer of the Australian Graves Service, Lieutenant Quentin Spedding, who had a file with references to Oxenham mentioned in the letters (I wonder if this still exists somewhere?)
I think what is clear from this exchange is that the Red Cross were seeking information about Gordon’s grave but that the War Graves Committee and the Graves Service were unaware of the location. This was because all the location information was with the Red Cross who never passed this information on to the graves services. Maybe they assumed this had already been done or they simply didn’t realise the mistake?  
I can send copies of the letters from the other files if you are interested.  I may go up to Maidenhead to check the CWGC file on German burials in Jordan I mentioned earlier (if you have not already checked this Alan?)
All the best
Dominic

Hi Dominic,

I've been away from the Forum for a while and to be honest, have done no further research on GVO. If you happen to be in Maidenhead, then I'd really appreciate you checking the file if you have the time and the inclination.

I've got the Red Cross file from the AWM.  Guess I need to re-read it.  I'll see if I can find Speddings file.  Thanks for the tip.  Let me know if I can do something for you for a change.

Regards,

Alan

[alfox]

alfox, on 23 July 2012 - 10:54 AM, said:

Hi Kate,

That means we're related.  I'm a shade vague on exactly how though.

Regards,

Alan

Sorry to call you Kate, Kale.  I need my eyes checked.

Regards,

Alan

[Silchester_john]

I have read these posts with interest as I have been undertaking survey work in the Qatrana area looking for evidence of  the Turkish airstrip.

Perhaps you have seen this already but just in case you have not I have included a link.  The APAAME team ( Aerial Photographic  Archive for Archaeology in the Middle East ) have posted a series of modern (2009) aerial photographs of the Oxenham cash site.

These can be seen here   http://www.flickr.com/search/?w=36925516%40N05&q=crash&m=text


Regards


John

[alfox]

Silchester_john, on 16 August 2012 - 11:24 AM, said:

I have read these posts with interest as I have been undertaking survey work in the Qatrana area looking for evidence of  the Turkish airstrip.

Perhaps you have seen this already but just in case you have not I have included a link.  The APAAME team ( Aerial Photographic  Archive for Archaeology in the Middle East ) have posted a series of modern (2009) aerial photographs of the Oxenham cash site.

These can be seen here   http://www.flickr.co...&q=crash&m=text


Regards


John

Hi John,

Were these photos taken by Professor Kennedy?  They look a bit familiar.  There is little doubt in my mind that they are of the crash site.

What have you discovered about Qatrana airfield?  My feeling is that it is covered by the modern cemetery that is there now, but that my great-uncle was buried there somewhere.

I have a photo of Qatrana Station and turnpike taken from a low flying (German or Turkish) aircraft in 1918 if you are interested.  

Regards,

Alan Oxenham

[Silchester_john]

alfox, on 30 August 2012 - 04:11 AM, said:

Hi John,

Were these photos taken by Professor Kennedy?  They look a bit familiar.  There is little doubt in my mind that they are of the crash site.

What have you discovered about Qatrana airfield?  My feeling is that it is covered by the modern cemetery that is there now, but that my great-uncle was buried there somewhere.

I have a photo of Qatrana Station and turnpike taken from a low flying (German or Turkish) aircraft in 1918 if you are interested.  

Regards,

Alan Oxenham

Hello Alan,

The photographs were taken by members of the team lead by Prof. David Kennedy and Bob Bewley, I am not certian who the photography was but the APAAME Flickr site will giive youy this detail of you need it.

As for the location of the Ottoman airfield at Qatrana it may be under the cemetry but I suspect it is in the area 100m east of the cemetry and 300 north east of the station complex. I will be in the area in 3 weeks time and hope to be able to walk over the area but that will depend on plans made when we arrive in Jordan.

You say that " have a photo of Qatrana Station and turnpike taken from a low flying (German or Turkish) aircraft in 1918 if you are interested."  I am always interested in seeing photographs from the period and It would be good to see this one if you are able to send it .  Thanks

Applogies for not replying sooner but for some reason I an not getting notified when posts are made to a thread I am following on the forum.

Regards

John

[alfox]

Silchester_john, on 16 October 2012 - 08:23 AM, said:

Hello Alan,

The photographs were taken by members of the team lead by Prof. David Kennedy and Bob Bewley, I am not certian who the photography was but the APAAME Flickr site will giive youy this detail of you need it.

As for the location of the Ottoman airfield at Qatrana it may be under the cemetry but I suspect it is in the area 100m east of the cemetry and 300 north east of the station complex. I will be in the area in 3 weeks time and hope to be able to walk over the area but that will depend on plans made when we arrive in Jordan.

You say that " have a photo of Qatrana Station and turnpike taken from a low flying (German or Turkish) aircraft in 1918 if you are interested."  I am always interested in seeing photographs from the period and It would be good to see this one if you are able to send it .  Thanks

Applogies for not replying sooner but for some reason I an not getting notified when posts are made to a thread I am following on the forum.

Regards

John

Hi John,

Like you, I don't seem to get notified either, so sorry for delay on my part.  I have tried to get the photo to load onto this site but it is too big and my computer skills are not such that I can wiork out how to make it smaller.  Email is my preference if that's all right with you, so if you want to message me with your email address, I'll get it to you.

Regards,

Alan