109 replies to this topic

[Martin G]

michaeldr, on 16 November 2010 - 03:52 PM, said:

I've just deleted a post of mine from here (reason - a total rethink)
I feel that my eyes need a rest from this aerial shot, which I have turned every-which-way and still cannot match with a map I have. The map is based on a photographic survey made on 5th September 1915 (the map is dated 7th Sept)
One thing that does strike me however, is that the map shows almost continuous scrub land between Chocolate Hill and Green Hill, with at best, only a couple of patches which might be cultivated fields. And at the moment I cannot reconcile that with what I see on the above aerial shot.

Come on chaps - let's hear some other views on this, please

Ditto. The aer photo  is a very big challenge. I have spent hours trying to match the field boundaries with the Sep, Oct and Nov editions of the 1:10,000 Bristh maps to no avail. Ditto with the modern Google earth. There is no doubt the Aer photo is of Gallipoli and in particular the flat terrain in the Suvla plain (the granularity and orientation 'bias' of the field pattern is very similar to the maps and modern satmaps) but I can not for the life of me get any fit. I have also tried with the areas NW towards Dublin Castle and also tried further SW... the only problem is that one very quickly gets into large features such as hills (with no field patterns) or the Salt Lake. The image is almost all fields and that means it can only lie within a relatively small part of Suvla. As a long shot I tried to match Helles too but the field patterns are distinctly different.

John I know is the expert in Aer photos. I sense that it is taken at an oblique angle but that should not make it too difficult. I can't see any trench pattern that matches either the British or Turkish trench maps. I am not 100% convinced tthe orientation is correct (NS and EW). I would have thought it very unlikely that the photographer got an exact NS and EW alignment. Also looking at the shadows, especially those of the tall poplar trees that line the ditches (and still do today), the shadows should reveal some clue as to the orientation. - like a gnomon on a sundial. If you look at Google Earth (see below) the sat images were taken in late October (2006), so roughly the same time of year and the shadows are distictly pointing N. Clearly if the photo was taken early in the morning or late in the afternoon the shadows would be pointing nearly WNW or ENE (respectively) but I would imagine Aer photos would have been taken near midday to optimise the light (John will doubtless be able to advise).  Either way, I think the shadows would have some northerly orientation and the shadows will allow us to limit the possibilities within about a 170 degree arc centred around North .......I think it needs to turn about 90 degrees anticlockwise.

The photo has stumped me for sure. .......My only very wild guess is that the image is a negative (mirror image). This however is extremely unlikely. I don't have the technology to flip the image.

MG

PS On the separate issue of the building, I noticed in the Historical Records of the South Nottinghamshire Hussars Yeomanry 1794-1924 there is a photo of Cator's House (between pages 224 and 225) showing it as a stone building with a pitched tiled roof,  and a high sandbag wall immediately adjacent - very similar to the photo that John posted. I am about to unpack my boxes that include the Regimental histories of the Sharpshooters, Roughriders, Westminster Dragoons, Lovat Scouts and Herts Yeo. Hopefully some might have photos that add to the discussion - they all at some time operated in the area.

PPS Dates. Reading the Warwick Yeo in the Great War, it says as late as Oct 11th "The ground in front [of the trenches just South of Choc Hill] was strewn with dead bodies of those who had fallen in the fighting in August and the men had to be employed in burying parties..." which suggest the original Dead Man's Gully photo could have been taken as late as this date.

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[bluedog]

Martin

  Many thanks for posting the Dead Mans Gully overlay in your post#20

  I will be on the Peninsula (again) for 86 days commencing April 6th. 2011
   and by getting info like this posted saves me a lot of "Googling" at
  home and leg work on the ground at Suvla.

  Many thanks again

  Peter

[Martin G]

bluedog, on 17 November 2010 - 04:48 AM, said:

  I will be on the Peninsula (again) for 86 days commencing April 6th. 2011
   and by getting info like this posted saves me a lot of "Googling" at
  home and leg work on the ground at Suvla.

Peter. Attached is an overlay in 3D of Suvla and the area of interest in this thread. I can do this for any area where ther are trench maps. The map opacity can be varied from full opacity (map looks like it is draped over the terrain) to feint, where the underlying (modern) landscape can be seen  'through' the map image. Particularly useful for nailing exact trench locations on the modern landscape. Ping me a PM if you need other areas in 2D or 3D. MG

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•  Suvla Overlay 1.jpg   87.25K   1 downloads

[Martin G]

Thales, on 11 November 2010 - 08:33 PM, said:

The relevance of this to the thread is that a case can be made for regarding the building top centre, which is built of stone with a roof irregular tiles or rough thatch, as Owl Barn.  Unfortunately there is nothing to tie down the exact location of the trench in the picture, but the Dorset Yeomanry were certainly in the vicinity of Munster Lane at various times in September and October and it is tempting to speculate that this is the trench in question.  If that is the case there are only two buildings which are slightly off the alignment of the trench as shown in the photograph - Owl Barn and White House.  Reason suggests that as the structure in the picture is not white, it might well be Owl Barn.  All very circumstantial, I would have to agree.

John

John. I was fortunate enough to spend a morning at the Kent and Sharpshooters Yeomanry Museum  and go through the 1st/3rd County of London Yeomanry (Sharpshooters) archives. The attached photo from their collection (reproduced with their permission) was what you call a "Eureka" moment. It is Cator's house and I think the same house as your photo. It answers a few of our questions on the existence of buildings with pitched roofs. It could well be the same location - note the small chimney at the gable end and the two trees.

I know you will respect the Kent and Sharpshooter Yeomanry Museum's copyright for this image. Permission was for research purposes only.  Anyone reading this I respectfully ask that you please do likewise. If you reproduce this outside this thread,  could I ask you to please get the KSY Museum's permission. Thanks. MG

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[Krithia]

Krithia, on 23 November 2010 - 12:12 AM, said:

yes, a separate thread would be a sensible thing to do ...

Anyone know how to do this, so I can move the 'Chocolate Hill' aero into a new thread ?

[corisande]

Why not add a post to the Dublin Castle thread
http://1914-1918.inv...howtopic=136014

Keeps it all together that way

[Martin G]

Krithia, on 28 November 2010 - 12:09 PM, said:

Anyone know how to do this, so I can move the 'Chocolate Hill' aero into a new thread ?

I think you ask the administrators.

[Krithia]

Martin G, on 29 November 2010 - 10:26 AM, said:

I think you ask the administrators.

Thanks, I am waiting for a response back ...

[Thales]

Thanks for the image, Martin.  It looks remarkably like Caters House to me.  I hope I will be able to add another image to the collection soon as I am expecting to receive a copy of a drawing of Caters House anytime now and this should help nail it down.

This means the front line trench shown in the picture I posted of my father is most unlikely to have been taken from Munster Lane.  At the time of the photograph the front line was presumably the one that runs past Tints Corner – possibly A60 or thereabouts.

Reverting to the discussion on the structure in Steve's post #13, I have discovered a version of S4 Provisional on which there are crayon and pencil markings indicating where sapping was in progress and also the location of several more houses in the area.  I have circled the houses in the attachment below, and one that at first sight seems to be of particular interest is marked no 4 as it is behind the Turkish front line at the Hetman Chair salient.  Also numbered are no 1 which is Well House, no 2 which is Owl Barn and no 3 which is White House.  

The S4 version gives the map a terminus post quem of 5^th September 1915 but the additional jottings showing Dorset Sap, Halsey Sap and others under construction are most likely a bit later and there is nothing to challenge the dating window previously suggested – 13 September to 1^st October.  There is a lot more detail in the map than shown in the crop below which will be of interest to Martin as it shows dispositions etc and I will send him a high res scan by email; also to anyone else who may be interested.

I am posting one further attachment here and one in a follow-up (sadly they cannot all be included here as I am losing too much definition in keeping under the 100kb limit).  The first is an overlay placing the map in context in a GE aer photograph. I have checked the coordinates for Owl Barn (no 2) and they match precisely the coordinates given previously by Martin in post #25.

The second zooms out to include features on the Anafarta Ridge and attempts to find alignments between Hill 112, houses marked on the map and a gully or track which might contain the bodies of those fallen in battle.  In my opinion, the only serious contenders are the ones along the alignment defined by the red line – Well House and Owl Barn.  According to the positions in this map, a shot taken from near Owl Barn (no 2) with Hill 112 in the background would also include barbed wire and probably Well House (no 1) beyond.  Both these buildings are in close proximity to Deadman's Gully.  A photograph taken from the track? to the east of White House (no 3) on the blue line could include barbed wire as there seems to have been some marked by a row of faint blue crosses on the annotated S4 map, but the house seems to be too far to the south of the line to get into a picture with Hill 112 in the background.  Likewise the building inside the Hetman salient (no 4) could well have included barbed wire protecting the Turkish front line trenches, but to get any sort of alignment the photographer would have had to be perilously close to danger. The further back along the track? you get towards the British front line, the more distorted the alignment.

So all in all, despite the prospect of new insights from the annotated S4 map, it adds very little to the provisional conclusions already reached, though in the S4 map it looks as if Well House being beyond the barbed wire is the more likely of the two buildings near Deadman's Gully.  

John

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[Thales]

and finally:

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[Martin G]

John. Great stuff.  I have overlaid your map on the 1:10,000 to get the same fix. Having two points of a triangle fixed on the ridge at the outer limits of the photo and roaming the ground, with the third point  (see blue triangle below)  my personal leaning is that the building in the photo has to be Well House, and probably photographed from Owl Barn or very close to Owl Barn - as you suggest. I can't get the photo view from any other point. The buildings look too large on your latest maps. I assume this is just original annotation as they are much smaller on the original 1:10,000 maps. As an aside, Sevki Pasha maps show little that can defined as clearly distinguishable buildings in that area, although both locations end up within the British wire (just).

Three thoughts;
1. Perhaps the Well House was reinforced because it was important source of water? There is evidence of the British protecting wells from snipers as the campaign progressed. It could explain the block-house appearance (?)
2. If the photo was indeed taken from Owl Barn, the building would have provided some cover for the photographer. From Yeomanry diaries we know that Owl Barn was in non-man's land and occasionally occupied by British piquets.
3. If the photo was taken after Well House came within the British wire (ref Sevki Pasha map) maybe this photo was taken from Owl Barn to Well House when both were occupied by the British  - hence reducing the risk for the photographer??

What is interesting about this thread is that we have so few photos of the area that exactly identify the viewpoint and the key features (esp. buildings). I have not seen a definitive picture of White House/ Black & White House, or Owl Barn or Well House. The annotated Cator's house photo was a revelation.  Having said that, all the Cator's House photo confirms is that stone buildings with pitched roofs existed. If this was one type of vernacular architecure, then it might suggest the existence of others i.e. a pitched roof building is not necessarily Cator's House. I think the word "house" is (in this case) clearly associated with a pitched roof. I have little doubt that there are photos out there that will positively identify these other features.

MG

P.S. John - I would be extremely grateful for a high res image of the greater area by email. MG

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[Thales]

Martin

One thing I meant to raise with ref to your picture of Cator's House.  I am sure I have seen the handwriting in the caption on other contemporary photographs too.  Could this indicate a photographer doing the rounds (as might be inferred from one of Michael's posts above, I think), or was it the handwriting of a collector?

With regard to the pencilled outlines of the houses in the map, my impression is that they are totally unreliable as regards scale, but the positioning is significant.  All the annotated additions in fact seem to be rough approximations, even the saps.  The S4 map on which the annotations were made of course stands on its own merits - credibility being given by the relationship with extant field boundaries.

The majority of the 'houses' circled are not named.  This opens up the possibility that some of the unnamed ones were temporary British structures of some kind; we are left guessing a bit.

Turning to the suggestion that the picture might have been taken from Owl Barn, this struck me too.  There would appear to be either sandbags or broken stonework in the lower foreground of one of Steve's images.

John

[Martin G]

Thales, on 01 December 2010 - 12:19 PM, said:

Martin

ref to your picture of Cator's House.  I am sure I have seen the handwriting in the caption on other contemporary photographs too.  Could this indicate a photographer doing the rounds (as might be inferred from one of Michael's posts above, I think), or was it the handwriting of a collector?John

John

The picture of Cator's House is from Lt Col A Weston Jarvis' photograph album (held at the KSY Museum in Croydon) and I am certain the handwriting in the caption is his. He kept a detailed diary throughout the War which I have read and am transcribing. The KSY Museum considers this the regimental War Diary. There are about 5 or 6 volumes covering his service from the Boer War through to Palestine in 1917 when he abruptly resigned. They are in immaculate condition and he barely missed a single day.  Having transcribed War Diaries and personal diaries before I have been able to 'tune in' to the varieties of Edwardian cursive script to decipher them.... AW Jarvis has a very distinctive handwriting. There are (I think I recall) 5 photo albums which must have a fair few hundred photos covering mobilisation, voyage, Alexandria, Mena, Chatby, Embarkation, Mudros, Gallipoli, evacuation, Mudros again and Egypt and then Palestine. It is an amazing collection of photos, all slightly smaller than A5 in size and all in immaculate focus and condition.. They all have handwritten captions and the month written at the top of the page (2 pics per page). Most, but not all are dated exactly. If the handwriting is familiar, it may be that some of the photos have been published before. There are a few that I recognise from books on Gallipoli, particularly the one of massed Yeomanry bivouacing on the area between the beaches and the lower (western) slopes of Kiretch Tepe. Our forbears are in that photo somewhere! Studying the Cator's House photo and looking at the preceeding and following photos, I think the man in the photo is a Scottish NCO, probably Scottish Horse(?) as he appears to have a bonnet with a toori. The picture that immediately follows shows 2Lt McIntyre, Scottish Horse in a similar bonnet standing next to the much priased Father Day.

The KSY Museum also has a few more albums with much smaller pictures which are nearly impossible to reproduce they are so small. One is an identical picture of Cator's House (also captioned) and dated 3-10-15. This album is one made by an NCO in the Sharpshooters. Each frame is also captioned but sadly 50% of the images are missing.

I did not have time to do a complete viewing, and tried to focus on the Suvla Bay photos. Some of the photos of the ships and transhipments from HMT Caledonia to HMS Doris are very clear. Also lots of photos of the Top Brass in their rather frugal dugouts and officers shovelling too. Specific photos of Azmak Dere barricade, Picadilly Circus, "Percy the Sniper's Tree", panoramas from the trenches with Choc Hill and Kiretch Tepe as good ref points, one view take "60 yds from the Turkish line", the Head of Lindsay Sap, the Brass at Tint's Corner, Mule Tpt at Lala Baba, detailed photos of Choc Hill trenches, Rich? Alley, Embarking on the "Waterwitch" and lots of HMT Themistocoles.

For anyone researching Egypt and Palestine  there is a vast amount of material in Lt Col Jarvis' albums and diaries.

MG

[Martin G]

Hello again... Just got some more evidence of the location of Dead Man's Gully which puts it in front of Tint's Corner. This agrees with the many suggestions on this thread...... this is from the "Historical Record of the Middlesex Yeomanry 1797 - 1927" by Benson Freeman and Charles Stonham. p.143:

"The Middlesex Hussars relieved the Herts Yeomanry in the front line on Sep 25th, this time at Tint's Corner, below  [South of] Green Hill; the trenches were partly under water and casualties occurred through men taking short cuts. The rattling of the Indian mule-carts way back brought broomstick bombs from the Turks each night at nine, the sticks of which were prized as firewood. These trenches were situated on a part of the battlefield of the '21st' [August]. Over the parapet were hundreds of unburied bodies of men of many regiments lying in fantastic attitudes and long shallow ditch known as 'Dead Man's Gully' was filled with mouldering skeletons, one on top of the other."


Regards. MG

[Martin G]

I have just located a copy of The Yeomanry Cavalry of Worcestershire 1794-1922 by "C" published in 1926.  This book is difficult to obtain. It reinforces the views on this thread of the location of Dead Man's Gully and adds a higher degree of certainty by providing two very strong reference points that we can pinpoint.- Page 42:

.
"Col Coventry  noted in his diary  that the duty strength of the Regiment  on Oct 16th was 7 Officers , 15 sergeants and 56 ORs. They had to occupy 99 yards of fire trench for which a minimum of 88 men was supposed to be provided. The line of the fire trench which the Regiment was now occupying lay across the track of part of the 11th Div in their attack on August 21st and the ground in front of it was  thickly strewn with their dead. Nowhere had they suffered more severely than in  Dead Man's Gully wich lay on the left front"

The Regimental War Diary records the Regiment was located in trench A63 on 16th October which is exactly in the area we have been discussing. See attached trench map. Also note the track running at right angles to the trench (long dashed line), cutting through A63 - a very strong link with the track mentioned above.  Regards MG

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[Krithia]

An excellent piece of research, and very compelling evidence.

In relation to this map, where is the modern day road that leads from the Anzac/Susak Kuyu area up over the Chocolate Hills?

[Martin G]

Krithia, on 24 March 2011 - 08:35 PM, said:

In relation to this map, where is the modern day road that leads from the Anzac/Susak Kuyu area up over the Chocolate Hills?

The road is a very feint yellow line on the post... but see attached....Map faded out showing modern road in white. Regards MG

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[Martin G]

And here is a pic from last year...

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[Krithia]

Thanks, I can see the yellow line now, second pic shows it clearly.

[Thales]

Martin

Agreed.  Same thing using 'S' Series map.  

Approx Co-ords:

Hetman Chair
40 17 09.68N
26 16 59.54E

Cater's House
40 17 08.82N
26 16 41.03E

John

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[Martin G]

Thanks John. We agree as ever. I

I am pretty sure we have the right location for Dead Man's Gully (DMG) but I have been experimenting with using Trench A63 as the view point and seeing if I can recreate the photo in my post No.26 and Michael's post No.31 wich compared the view with the original B&W picture. My theory (then) was that the view was looking at the white scarred gully that splits Hill 112 from the W Hills. I now don't think it is .  To get this view from A63 one would have to be looking on a bearing of 80 degrees (almost Eastwards) but this problem with this direction is that it does not align with DMG (assuming we are correct on DMG's alignment).  

Possible New Theory. The hills above  Biyuk Anafarta have very very similar scarring  and skyline of the deep gullies (pictures to follow) and if one was looking on a bearing of 122 degrees (roughly SW) from A63 you can align DMG and the hills with the scarring. At the risk of being shot down,  I think this view is now more likely to be the alignment of the original photo. [Edit: on later consideration and due to Thale's excellent points in following posts I think this comment is wrong. I am sticking with the original theory. I thought of deleting this post but it does still offer an alternative as a point of debate. MG]

I have attached the GE 3D on the modern landscape with A63 as the apex and showing DMG in white and both bearings  - red for Hill112/W Hills and yellow for the hills above Biyuk Anafarta (I think these hills are and extension of  the ridge Chunuk Bair - Hill Q - Koja Chemen Tepe) and I have to do a bit of research to identify the exact name.... Regards MG

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[Martin G]

This is not a brilliant photo but it was taken from the track that I believe is aligned with DMG at a point roughly 200 yards in front of A63 and looking on a very similar bearing to the yellow bearing in the post above ( roughly 120 degrees). It is above the 'a' in Hetman on the trench map. The view shows the hills above Biyuk Anafarta. Note the distinct scarring left of centre and the similar steep gully. .... MG

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[Martin G]

And another pic. On the near left horizon is Hill 112 and W Hills..... On the far centre and right horizon is the ridge extension that runs from Chunuk Bair - Hill Q - Koja Chemen Tepe and along (left) towards Biyuk Anafarta which is out of sight behind W Hills. Note the multiple yellowish scarring of the deep gullies. This pic is taken from the upper slopes of the southern side of Green Hill from the location of the junction of Trenches B53 and B52 looking roughly SE. Sadly I don't have any better pics of the ridge-line, but it does show the similar scarring.....  Regards MG

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[Thales]

Probably an oversimplification, but maybe it would depend on the exact position of the photographer?

John

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[Martin G]

John - I think you have it on the red line.... Cancel my last. I was incorrectly assuming the photo was taken from A63, but of course the trench maps show multiple saps in front of those trenches. I have edited my earlier comment. MG