Posted 24 November 2010 - 01:44 PM
Neil2 - in answer to Post number 43 on how I plotted the coordinates, the short answer is that there was no diary reference (other than the 1/4th and 1/7th Essex and Bde War Diaries which I have read). There are 2 facts; that they were on the 90m contour and on the Southern slope trenches down from Jephson's Post. <BR><BR>As discussed we can get a very high quality fit for the contoured trench maps. It is simple to fit to the ridge line and the coast line so we have little error here. If sea-level and the spot heights are known and fitted, then in theory all interval contours should be correct. Following the trench line down is also easy as multiple map overlays agree where the trench line was. Again we can have a high degree of certaintly here. By getting a good map fit, and following the trench line down to the 90m contour we can identify the area within a small margin of error. Added to that, as you say later, the ground often dictated the location of trenches and a trained eye can still trace some of the trench lines on the satellite images on GE. There is a strong convergence of high quality information to support this as the location. Having walked the area in July, I am confident we are in the right location. <BR><BR>The caveat is that the contour maps were inaccurate (possible) and the trenches plotted on the maps were inaccurate. If the contours were inaccurate, from a practical point of view we can circumvent this by walking the ground. Turn SE from the peak at Jephson's post and walk along the bearing of the trench (hard work through the holly-oak scrub admittedly) with a hand-held satnav or Garmin watch until we see 90m altitude. From that point it might still be clear from the local features where the trench was. Walking along the 90m contour would also help establish the point. I know this method works well as I walked Suvla Bay extensively in Jul doing just this. The spot height readings are very accurate (within 2m) in most locations. I even have photos of my Garmin watch reading on a few spot heights ( I should really get a life). With reagrds to any inaccuracies in plotting the trenches, we know that Aer photos were used and are very accurate. We can have very little doubt that Aer photography was used to plot the trenches on the British Maps. Prof. Peter Doyle (GWF member) and Dr Peter Chasseaud's "Grasping Gallipoli - Terrain, Maps and Failure in the Dardanelles 1915" are the authority on this..... p. 246 "... While trench diagrams had been plotted for the Helles and ANZAC sectors as a result of close study of, and plotting from, aerial photos over a period of 3 months...... this information turned out to be accurate." It is reasonable to assume that as the Suvla campaign progressed, the same techniques were used. They also say on p.245 " Aerial reconnaisance and photography provided the most detailed and accurate information...." Essentially they make an excellent argument that it is one of the great untruths of Gallipoli that map and terrain intelligence was poor. If we accept that the trench maps were prepared from aer photos and that aer photos were the most accurate and detail resource, then we have the smallest margin for error when comparing to, say sketch maps made under fire without the ability to even stand up and look at the ground.. A cursory glance at the Dublin Castle aer photo from member Krithia (on the Dead Man's Gully thread ) with contemporary sketch maps of Dublin Castle exposes the relative weakness and inherent inaccuracies in sketches. For my money, trench maps prepared from aer photos gives us a much higher degree of certainty. GWF Member Thales has experience of interpreting aer photos in a previous life and may wish to add his thoughts. <BR><BR>I hope this explains how I got the grid ref. I think if you went to that grid ref you would be able to see the land and work out exactly where the trench was. Regards MG <BR><BR>P.S. One last point - maps were (eventaully) made available in abundance. Yesterday I went through Col Weston Jarvis (3rd County of London Yeomanry (Sharpshooters)) war diaries and papers held at Sharpshooter House in Croydon. He had no less than 5 copies of the 1:20,000 scale maps of Kiretch Tepe. All in near mint condition.