150 replies to this topic

[Neil2]

I wonder if anyone can help with a map question?

On August 18 1915 the 7th Essex moved to a position on Kiretch Tepe Sirt given in the war diary as: "Square 135 TY 190 contour ref. map K.A. 1/20,000." Later on, (the very same evening, according to the 4th Essex war diary - though the 7th seems to differ) the 4th Essex, in straightening the firing line, moved into a position directly in front of the 7th Essex, putting the latter automatically into the reserve line.

Is it possible to work out on a modern map (or any military map of the time) exactly the location to which this map reference refers?

[michaeldr]

Neil,

This should help you to identify the position 135 TY
The map is cropped from a one on the WFA's disc of Gallipoli maps and is their copyright. If you have not already got this disc, then as a value-for-money item it is highly recommended.



regards
Michael

[michaeldr]

Neil,
On the above map the contours are at intervals of 10
The Pink area begins at the 100 contour, and the Red area at the 150
The 190 contour, in the 135 sub-squares T & Y, is immediately above the word 'Kiretch'

[Martin G]

Here is a 3D view with the Sevki Pasha Map of the same area overalid on Google Earth. View is from the British positions looking slightly E of NE... MG

Attached Files

•  Kiretch Tepe 3D-1.jpg   92.33K   13 downloads

[Neil2]

Michael, Martin. Brilliant stuff and double-quick time! What a forum. Thanks to both of you.  I've never seen that map before - and a stunning 3-D image.

[michaeldr]

Martin,

I must say, I doooo like your 3D maps
Having stood not far from this point just a few months ago, this one is (as Neil says) quite stunning

regards
Michael

[Neil2]

Completely brilliant. Are those blues lines Turkish trenches or a watercourse? There's a black one up the top too...

[Neil2]

Judging from your info Michael - the position must hae been pretty much across the top of the ridge - right smack up against Jephson's Post.

[michaeldr]

Martin G, on 19 November 2010 - 04:20 PM, said:

Here is a 3D view with the Sevki Pasha Map of the same area overalid on Google Earth. View is from the British positions looking slightly E of NE... MG

While we are trying to place Jephson's Post for Neil
please compare HMS Talbot's sketch with the 3D map above
Well done both!
(also, please note Talbot's spelling of Jephson's)


[To the WFA/IWM re their copyright; please look upon this as advertising for your Gallipoli maps disc]

[AndyR]

Hi all,

I too have been inspired by Martin's fantastic overlays both here and from the Dead Man's Gully thread.
However, Gully Ravine (Keith) has pointed out to me something that I hadn't realised before (though its so obvious in retrospect I can't believe I missed it!), that the paths used by the troops walking to the front line are clearly visible and traceable on the Google Earth maps. My wife thinks the fascination I have developed over the last few days in "flying" along these paths at ground level and seeing how the landscape reveals itself over each rise is either very sad or slightly mad!
Anyway a few 3-Ds of the southern slopes to follow and hopefully some overlays showing that certainly the paths, and I think many of the trench lines can be seen on the maps.
Should also acknowledge that the overlay I've used is the Suvla evacuation map from the Keep Military Museum website re the Queen'sOwn Dorset Yeomanry and the 5th Battalion the Dorset Regiment (http://www.keepmilit...wal.php?&page=1).

First pic is southern slopes - Kidney Hill is the lump at right (with sea in background) and Azmak Dere is the first significant gully coming back to the left (where the West to East band of "sand" ends).

AndyR
 suvla southern slopes.jpg   92.1K   2 downloads

[AndyR]

Haven't quite got the overlay right on this one (its just too far up along the crest) but the path "wiggle" over the crest and the path along the Northern shore line and also the one on the southern slope can be traced on the google map (next post - was intending to put them side by side - put if I shrink it anymore the paths become invisible)
AndyR
 kiretch paths 1.jpg   47.19K   0 downloads

 kiretch paths 2.jpg   93.55K   1 downloads
and view without overlay

[AndyR]

Next one is trench lines on Southern slopes (British trenches hard to see except low on the slopes up from where the lines come close together) - though the Turkish ones seem clear to me - be intersted to hear if people think I'm imagining it - AndyR

 kiretch trench 1.jpg   39.79K   1 downloads

[AndyR]

This is a better 3-D view - it gives an excellent impression of the Turkish trenches on the first rise and with Kidney Hill further right after the next dip - the gully coming down from the British lines in Azmak Dere - AndyR

 kiretch trench 3.jpg   81.61K   1 downloads

This the same view without the overlay - AndyR

[AndyR]

Last ones for now - the Boot (down on the coast) from the Pimple (I'm presuming the grey blob on crest in centre is the cairn?) - again the overlay isn't quite right - but take it away and the trench lines are clearish - AndyR

[michaeldr]

Neil,

Regarding the position of Jephson's Post
The map below is from the WD and shows Jephson's to have been the western most of the three tops on the ridge. (The next to east-ward was the Bench Mark and the third was The Pimple)



If you look at my first map above (in post #2), then Jephson's is above the letters 'Ta' in Tape, while the Bench Mark is above the 't' in Sirt.

regards
Michael

[Krithia]

Hi All,

The attached map from THE PALS AT SUVLA BAY shows the Pimple as the centre cairn, the left (westward) being Jephson's Post as we know. The right (most eastward) I always had down as the Kiretch Tepe summit, the highest point at about 202 metres. Period accounts always puts the Boot and Green Knoll in advance of the Pimple, which it is in this map.

pen for discussion ...

 Map 11 Kiretch Tepe Ridge (The Pals at Suvla Bay).jpg   32.9K   1 downloads

[michaeldr]

Steve,

The map used as the end paper inside the front cover of Vol. II of the OH shows The Pimple opposite Kidney Hill and puts the spot height in the middle of the summit ridge. Likewise, the map Sketch 26, seen between its pages 296 & 7, also puts The Pimple above Kidney Hill and not at the centre of the ridge.
The best detail on this question which I have been able to find so far, is to be found on a map in the WD of the 11th Div., General Staff, October  1915; "Sketch to illustrate objectives of 32nd Brigade & to accompany proposals dated 7.10.15. Scale about 1/10,000"
As soon as Photobucket  allows, then I will add a copy here

regards
Michael

[Martin G]

Neil2, on 19 November 2010 - 05:54 PM, said:

Completely brilliant. Are those blues lines Turkish trenches or a watercourse? There's a black one up the top too...

The blue lines are British Trench positions at the very end. The Sevki Pasha survey was done after the campaign. In 1916 or 1917. The black line is the end of a piece or Arabic script on the original map.

[michaeldr]

As soon as Photobucket allows, then I will add a copy here

Done

[Martin G]

michaeldr, on 20 November 2010 - 09:39 AM, said:

Steve,The map used as the end paper inside the front cover of Vol. II of the OH shows The Pimple opposite Kidney Hill and puts the spot height in the middle of the summit ridge. Likewise, the map Sketch 26, seen between its pages 296 & 7, also puts The Pimple above Kidney Hill and not at the centre of the ridge.  Michael

This Map echoes Michael's comments on the location of The Pimple, Kiretch Tepe Sirt, Kidney Hill etc. I have photos taken from each of the cairns if you need them. Taken near midday on 15th July this year on a very clear day MG

Attached Files

•  01-suvla-1.jpg   82.14K   1 downloads

[Krithia]

Martin G, on 20 November 2010 - 10:13 AM, said:

This Map echoes Michael's comments on the location of The Pimple, Kiretch Tepe Sirt, Kidney Hill etc. I have photos taken from each of the cairns if you need them. Taken near midday on 15th July this year on a very clear day MG

Doing some more digging, John Hargrave places the Pimple also towards the centre of the hogsback. I agree the Turkish front line was approx half way between the two large cairns, marked "Bench Mark" on most maps, just east of which was the Pimple (collection of natural rocks, now all overgrown). The third cairn I believe is not the Pimple.

John Hargrave wrote: Along the rock-hackled spine rose three small prominences, the central one being marked by a cairn of stones, known to us as "The Pimple". The cairn in the middle has collapsed so is not obvious today.

Could it have 'moved'? Early accounts for August appear to differ from your October and of course the OH map which is December 1915?

I am still not convinced either way, but will do some more digging ...

 File0002.jpg   26.12K   0 downloads

[Krithia]

Found some more info ... The Taylor and Cupper book, in my view the ultimate guide book to Gallipoli states; Further along the ridge you arrive at the second cairn, which has collapsed and is overgrown with maquis. This was the site of the Turkish front line. Mid-way between the second and third cairn is the rocky outcrop known as the Pimple ... the third cairn marks the summit of Kiretchtepe. To the SE of it there is a smaller ridge, Kidney Hill.

It sounds to me that different people reference different parts of the hogsback as the Pimple. The OH (which is not 100% correct as we know) appears to mark it at the third Cairn, as does the 32 Bde map Michael has kindly posted. However the 32Bde map also marks the British front line in the incorrect position for late August. It was in fact running from the Boot in a large "Z" shape, back to Jephson's Post, not as shown. Saying that this may be 32 Bde's positions so only relevant to them?

There is a rocky outcrop between the two easterly cairns that makes sense. Attached is a photo taken in September this year west of the third cairn. I have marked very roughly what I believe to be Jephson's Post, the Bench Mark and "The Pimple"? What do you think? Waiting here to be shot down :-)

 147 Modern day view looking from the turkish lines towards Jephson\'s Post.JPG   99.63K   5 downloads

[Martin G]

Back to the drawing board. Looks like the 1/4th Essex were on the Southern slopes.... Somewhere in the vicinity of  40°20'0.72"N  26°15'59.98"E - see lower red pin in image below.

161st Bde War Diary for Aug 1915:

17th Aug 1915: 05:00 hrs. Moved up southern slope of Kiretch Tepe and relieved  30th Bde

18th Aug 1915: 04:00 hrs. 1/4th Essex advanced 1,000 yards on southern slope of KIRETCH TEPE to consolidate line and join JEPHSON'S POST to left of 162 nd Bde. Casualties : killed 1 Officer (Capt H Taylor) 1 other rank: wounded 3 Officers  Lt  Col Hawkins, Lt Batsford, 2 Lt W/N?aldrett, 50 other ranks.

19th-23rd Aug 1915 -  No diary entry (presumably quiet on Kiretch Tepe as all hell breaks loose at Scimitar Hill 21/22 Aug)

24th Aug 1915:  20:00 hrs. 1/4th Essex took over an extra 400 yards of trench on the right, previously held by 88th Bde. detachment of 1/6th Essex advanced 20 yards NE from JEPHSON'S POST and consolidated intake (?) with remainder of Post

25th-26th Aug 1915 - No diary entry

27th Aug 1915: 22:00 hrs Relieved on KIRETCH TEPE by 33rd Bde. Moved to Divisional Reserve camp on N slope of KARAKOL DAGH

As an aside the 1/4th Bn Essex War Diaries are very well written and worth a read. Extremely detailed for this period. MG

Attached Files

•  2-1.jpg   70.89K   3 downloads

[michaeldr]

The Taylor and Cupper book, in my view the ultimate guide book to Gallipoli states; Further along the ridge you arrive at the second cairn, which has collapsed and is overgrown with maquis. This was the site of the Turkish front line.

When exactly?

[Krithia]

I would say from 17 August after the Irish troops pulled back from the Pimple. For the remainder of the campaign, with the exception of entrenching in the Boot area and down the southern slopes from Jephson's Post, the front lines in this area changed little. This is supported by the many maps of the area from August onwards.

Rgs Krithia