18 replies to this topic

[Krithia]

And for John the photo of Chocolate Hill. This came with a few of the Anzac region and is marked on the back "Chocolate Hill", but as you say, this may be incorrect. I have spent many hours looking at this and believe it may be Chocolate (left) and Green Hill (right), but I am not convinced as it is difficult to compare to the trench maps of the area. Of course trenches change. I believe it is the correct way around, but had to reduce the size below the 100kb limit for this site, unfortunately detail has therefore been lost. Try your worse! otherwise shout and I'll email you a better copy.

 Copy of Air Photo - Chocolate Hill.jpg   61.01K   1 downloads

[Thales]

Steve

A nice big tiff (or equivalent) of that by email would be just the job.  This one will be a magnifying glass job rather than a stereoscope one, but I'm sure either of those dates me.

John

[michaeldr]

I've just deleted a post of mine from here (reason - a total rethink)
I feel that my eyes need a rest from this aerial shot, which I have turned every-which-way and still cannot match with a map I have. The map is based on a photographic survey made on 5th September 1915 (the map is dated 7th Sept)
One thing that does strike me however, is that the map shows almost continuous scrub land between Chocolate Hill and Green Hill, with at best, only a couple of patches which might be cultivated fields. And at the moment I cannot reconcile that with what I see on the above aerial shot.

Come on chaps - let's hear some other views on this, please

[Thales]

Martin's comments about the shadows struck me too, and with desktop and laptop side by side I rotated both the aer photo and at times the GE coverage to angles that might correspond to the position of the sun.  In the pre modern era of aer photo interpretation, shadows were a godsend as if you knew the altitude of the plane and the time of day and year, it was possible to calculate the height of the feature you were investigating.  This was the slide rule era by the way - the whole process sometimes took quite a time when you had to do the maths the old fashioned way.

Another helpful ploy can be to try and get the scales of the aer photo and the GE image to correspond.  This is a shot in the dark without identifiable features, but if you take the rough averages of the lengths and widths of the fields in the aer photo and in the GE coverage it helps to narrow down at least the overall area.  I found that if I set the GE altitude at around 5,000 feet it had the right general feel.

There are enough natural and man-made features in this aer photo that positioning should be straightforward, but it is not.  I too am stumped for the time being, but this sort of thing can be fairly commonplace in aer photo interpretation.  The good news is that  eureka moments do come along quite frequently and I will come back to it from time to time and have another go.  A high res version of the aer photo would be helpful  Steve.  I do though have an open mind about whether we are on the right tracks in narrowing it down to Chocolate Hill / Green Hill.

Regarding the 'structure' in the photograph from Deadmans Gully, and bearing in mind Steve's comments about single storey versus two storey, I have been going through whatever pictures I have access to with sandbags in mind.  Just a thought.

John

[Gully Ravine]

I'm not sure I concur with Thales earlier assessement that Dublin Castle was blown up to minimise the risk of sniping.  At the time it was demolished (according the the RDF 1st battalion war diary) it was in the hands of the Royal Dublin Fusiliers when it was damaged and they then decided to demolish it.  At that time it was part of  / behind allied lines and, as such, did not present a 'sniper' risk.  Of course, I stand to be corrected.

Keith

[Krithia]

Chaps, the photo posted earlier of Chocolate Hill, I have looked again at the original photo and transcribed a bit of scribble that I couldn't read before. It says "Positions NW of Chocolate Hill", so we are looking North west I think. Saying that it is still difficult matching up the trenches.

[Martin G]

Krithia, on 21 November 2010 - 10:54 PM, said:

Chaps, the photo posted earlier of Chocolate Hill, I have looked again at the original photo and transcribed a bit of scribble that I couldn't read before. It says "Positions NW of Chocolate Hill", so we are looking North west I think. Saying that it is still difficult matching up the trenches.

All - I think I have the location of the Aer Photo. Our deductions on the long shadows and orientation were about right. It is 2.7 km directly North (bearing zero degrees) from the centre of Choc Hill. The centre of the Aer photo is  40°19'4.00"N  26°16'38.19"E very close to the site of Dublin Castle. Trenches C 53 to C 58 and parts of Q1 and Q2 run roughly across the NE corner of the photo. This centre equates to British Map 1:10,000 Sheet 118 Grid Square L8. Doing the overlay and fading in and out there is an excellent fit. I can get a fix on over 50 features - fields, boundaries, tracks, deres, treelines etc. There is little doubt in my my that this is the correct place. Context 3D photo to follow.Regards MG

Attached Files

•  NW Map Overlay-2.jpg   58.92K   0 downloads
•  NW Map-1.jpg   39.15K   0 downloads

[Martin G]

3D view of Aer photo and Sheets 118 & 119 to put it into context. MG

Attached Files

•  Aer 3D-1.jpg   86.97K   1 downloads

[michaeldr]

Well done Martin!
The two shots in your post #60 look very convincing

regards
Michael

[Thales]

Krithia, on 21 November 2010 - 10:54 PM, said:

It says "Positions NW of Chocolate Hill", so we are looking North west I think. Saying that it is still difficult matching up the trenches.

Vital clue there Steve, and well spotted Martin.  The trenches are on Sevki Pasha sheet M-012411.  I will post an image shortly.  What did I say about eureka moments?
John

[bluedog]

Martin.

  Your photos posted on #60 tie in with my GPS Co-Ords for Dublin Castle.

  I have it at:
  40-19-1.93 N
  26-16-49.04 E

  Peter

[Martin G]

bluedog, on 22 November 2010 - 11:11 AM, said:

Your photos posted on #60 tie in with my GPS Co-Ords for Dublin Castle.  40-19-1.93 N  26-16-49.04 E  

Bluedog. I know in the past there has been a lot of debate about the exact location of Dublin Castle. I think GWF members "V Beach" and "Gully Ravine" have also put a considerable amount of effort into locating it. I think the photo provides good supporting evidence that you all have the right coordinates. MG.

[Thales]

This and the image in the post which follows should identify some of the features which correspond

Attached Files

•  Sevki crop.jpg   83.13K   0 downloads

[Thales]

Aer photo which hopefully corresponds

Attached Files

•  Aer pic.jpg   85.29K   0 downloads

[Martin G]

Dear All - I am mindful that the original post was "Dead Man's Gully" and we are now 3 km North in the vicinity of Dublin Castle. The 'mission creep' is delightful but it might be worth cutting the Aer photo discussion and posting it as "Dublin Castle Aer Photo" as a separate thread for future researchers to pick up. It would fit nicely with GWF Member 'V Beach's' Dublin Castle discussions. I have only seen a very few Aer photos of Gallipoli and I think it is of immense value for people wanting to walk the exact ground. Just a thought -  and clearly would be GWF Member Krithia's prerogative. Regards.  MG

[michaeldr]

I would like to second that proposal

Michael

[vbeach]

Dear All
Great to see that Dublin Castle has come to the fore again.

Those of you in the know will realise that I have been following this thread with great interest as Mrs Gully Ravine – and on that note less of the ‘chaps’ please.

I would hope that Krithia agrees that it now warrants a separate thread as suggested by Martin.

Kind regards
Lyn

[Krithia]

vbeach, on 22 November 2010 - 10:07 PM, said:

Dear All
Great to see that Dublin Castle has come to the fore again.

Those of you in the know will realise that I have been following this thread with great interest as Mrs Gully Ravine – and on that note less of the ‘chaps’ please.

I would hope that Krithia agrees that it now warrants a separate thread as suggested by Martin.

Kind regards
Lyn

yes, a separate thread would be a sensible thing to do ... Aero photos of the castle now :-)

Good job boys ... and Lyn,

thanks, Krithia

[corisande]

I have not been doing much on RDF of late - been sidetracked by other projects.

However I did a page on Dublin Castle a while ago after the thread on it
http://www.dublin-fu...lin-castle.html

I obviously need to go over it and update that page

I must say I am really impressed by the overlays on this thread, when I tried to do mine It was very hit or miss. I must look at the software one can use!