18 replies to this topic

[moggs]

Please correct me if I am wrong but I have seen on documentaries and on some web sites the so-called fact that the 5th Division attack at Fromelles (19th July 1916) was the first AIF battle on the Western Front.  I do not want to take away from the tragedy that unfolded but certainly other units were involved in attacks prior to that disastrous day.  E.G. the 14th Battalion attacked at Bois-Grenier on the 3rd July 1916.  I'm sure other units must have been involved in other stunts too.

If any out there know or think differently please enlighten me.

Jonathan

[River97]

Jonathan,

It is a known fact that there are Australians lying in CWGC cemeteries and commemorated on memorials to the missing in France with dates of death before that of Fromelles.

I think what they mean is that Fromelles was the first large scale, major battle, the first of any historical significance involving Australian forces. I in no way detract from those who put their lives on the line fighting before Fromelles.

Cheers Andy.

[bluedog]

Jonathon

  My Grandfather ,17 Battalion was in the trenches in the "Nursary Sector" at
  Bois Grenier in April 1916.

  Pte. Jackson 17th. Btn. won the V.C. in that Sector for a trench raid in April.

   Peter

[Siege Gunner]

I'm not familiar with the action at Bois Grenier in early July, Jonathan  -  do you have a Bean or war diary link for it?  Bois Grenier is no distance from Fromelles, but I think it would have been just outside the right-hand boundary (German perspective) of the sector held by the 6th Bavarian Reserve Division (with RIR20 on its right), so it will have been their neighbours who were attacked on 3 July.  

Plans for an operation at Fromelles were already in existence at that time, so I'm wondering if the object of the exercise was to persuade RIR20 to thicken up its right flank, or at least not reinforce its left flank, where RIR21 was beginning to react to reports of a build-up of infantry opposite its sector and of artillery around Fauquissart/Pétillon. In the event, RIR20 was not assaulted directly on 19/20 July, but it played less of a part in moving men across to support the containment and counter-attack operations in the sector around Rouges Bancs than did RIR16, which was holding the trenches to the left of RIR21.

Mick

[skipman]

Using Geoff's Unobfuscated Search Engine you come up with these figures;

Search results for: + 09/01/1916-03/07/1916. records found: 1386

Search results for: + 09/01/1916-18/07/1916. records found: 1658

Search results for: + 09/01/1916-20/07/1916. records found: 3410

Also found a useful site HERE

Cheers Mike

[moggs]

Siege Gunner, on 13 December 2010 - 11:21 AM, said:

I'm not familiar with the action at Bois Grenier in early July, Jonathan  -  do you have a Bean or war diary link for it?  Bois Grenier is no distance from Fromelles, but I think it would have been just outside the right-hand boundary (German perspective) of the sector held by the 6th Bavarian Reserve Division (with RIR20 on its right), so it will have been their neighbours who were attacked on 3 July.  

Plans for an operation at Fromelles were already in existence at that time, so I'm wondering if the object of the exercise was to persuade RIR20 to thicken up its right flank, or at least not reinforce its left flank, where RIR21 was beginning to react to reports of a build-up of infantry opposite its sector and of artillery around Fauquissart/Pétillon. In the event, RIR20 was not assaulted directly on 19/20 July, but it played less of a part in moving men across to support the containment and counter-attack operations in the sector around Rouges Bancs than did RIR16, which was holding the trenches to the left of RIR21.

Mick

Try this link for direct information    http://www.awm.gov.a...M4-23-31-21.pdf

[moggs]

Thanks to all who posted.  It has cleared my mind.  I just get a bit annoyed that so-called experts don't know about the losses and heroism of all who fought in, perhaps lesser but equally deadly, affairs.

Jonathan

[Siege Gunner]

moggs, on 13 December 2010 - 10:07 PM, said:

Try this link for direct information    http://www.awm.gov.a...M4-23-31-21.pdf

Many thanks, Moggs  -  so a raiding party in moderate strength, the purpose of which is not revealed in the unit's own war diary and doubtless needs to be sought in the records of higher echelons.  It sounds like a doughty scrap, though, so thanks for drawing attention to this action a couple of weeks before the major battle at Fromelles.

Counter-attacking across NML to the enemy trenches after repulsing a raid doesn't sound at all like 6BRD, who had been in the sector for a very long time and were essentially defensive within the positions they had devoted a lot of time and effort to constructing  -  as witnessed by the fact that they did not counter-attack across NML in the wake of the attacks on 9 May 1915 (Aubers Ridge, but over basically the same ground) or 19/20 July 1916, despite having available reserves and, at least for the time being, the tactical advantage.  So I think it must have been their neighbours to the right.

Incidentally, according to the war diary, the raid appears to have taken place on 2 July rather than 3 July, and it was the German counter-attack that took place the following day. The war diary also uses the term 'gallantly' to describe the conduct of the officers and men of the battalion in the face of the enemy bombardment and the subsequent assault on their trenches, which cost the enemy 12 killed and 30 wounded and ended with twelve Germans reaching their parapet and five entering their trenches.  That term seems entirely appropriate in the context of troops successfully defending an entrenched position, and it was clearly considered to be the right term by the battalion diarist at the time.  To now hype such a minor action to the level of 'heroism' is to leave no scope for characterising the extremes of courage that transcend 'mere gallantry' and, when applied to a unit only recently arrived on the Western Front, seems more than a little disparaging to the troops who had been stoically and equally gallantly enduring similar and greater trials there since 1914.

[moggs]

Siege Gunner, on 14 December 2010 - 01:47 AM, said:

Incidentally, according to the war diary, the raid appears to have taken place on 2 July rather than 3 July, and it was the German counter-attack that took place the following day. The war diary also uses the term 'gallantly' to describe the conduct of the officers and men of the battalion in the face of the enemy bombardment and the subsequent assault on their trenches, which cost the enemy 12 killed and 30 wounded and ended with twelve Germans reaching their parapet and five entering their trenches.  That term seems entirely appropriate in the context of troops successfully defending an entrenched position, and it was clearly considered to be the right term by the battalion diarist at the time.  To now hype such a minor action to the level of 'heroism' is to leave no scope for characterising the extremes of courage that transcend 'mere gallantry' and, when applied to a unit only recently arrived on the Western Front, seems more than a little disparaging to the troops who had been stoically and equally gallantly enduring similar and greater trials there since 1914.

Yes, you're right about the date - it was the night of the 2nd.

It was not my intention to hype the action, though I do understand and agree with your overall point.  I used the word heroism in the broader sense of all who fought.

Be that as it may it's interesting that in Wanliss' Battalion history (p120) he states
" The greatest difficulty was now experienced in getting back the wounded, and many splendid acts of heroism were performed by men who, after participating in all the strain and struggle of the engagement, risked their lives again and again, amidst the flying bullets, to rescue wounded comrades."

Jonathan

[ANZ707]

G'day

The 2nd Bn AIF went up to the line at Croix-du-Bac on 19/04/1916 relieving the 18th Manchester and remained there until 03/07/1916.  From there they moved South to next go up to the line at Pozieres on 23/07/1916

I'm sure that there was an article about the first Australian Causality on the Western Front in a recent edition of DIGGER Magazine from the Families and Friends of the First AIF.  I'll see if I can find it tonight.

Patric Millar

[bluedog]

G'day again

  The 5th. Brigade of the 2nd. Div.took over the position at Bois Grenier on
  09-04-1916 from the 103 Brigade of the 34th. British Division.

  Peter

[moggs]

ANZ707, on 17 December 2010 - 03:38 AM, said:

G'day

The 2nd Bn AIF went up to the line at Croix-du-Bac on 19/04/1916 relieving the 18th Manchester and remained there until 03/07/1916.  From there they moved South to next go up to the line at Pozieres on 23/07/1916

I'm sure that there was an article about the first Australian Causality on the Western Front in a recent edition of DIGGER Magazine from the Families and Friends of the First AIF.  I'll see if I can find it tonight.

Patric Millar

Any luck with the find?

I ask because the same comment was made in the Digger magazine No. 33. on p17 "…Fromelles, the first place Australians saw action on the Western Front…"  This is in an article about the Dawe Brothers, one of whom was a member of the 14th Battalion.

I really like the Digger magazine but I would have thought it would be able to edit with a bit more clarity on points of truth.

Jonathan

[Andrew P]

When the AIF infantry arrived in France from late March 1916 onwards they were all sent to the region covering Armentiers, Bois Greiner and Fleurbaix (Fromelles) to gain front line experience. The 2nd Division in late March/early April 1916, the 1st Division in April 1916, the 4th Division in June 1916 and the 5th Division in late june early July 1916. (The 3rd Division arrived from England to the Armentieres sector in December 1916)

I haven't got the Digger article in front of me but from recollection the first AIF man killed in France was in December 1915, as part of the Australian Motor Transport Corps in France, the next one being in March 1916 as part of the Australian Heavy Artillery. This was before the AIF infantry had even arrived in France. (Of course there were Australians killed earlier as members of the British forces)

Fromelles would be the first major AIF Battle on the Western Front, I'm not sure if you could refer to Company sized trench raids as major actions in the scale of things. There were instances like the German trench raid on the 11th Battalion on May 30th 1916 that inflicted heavy casualties on the Australians. While the 28th & 26th Battalions launched a very successful trench raid in early June that inflicted damage to the Germans while sustaining just a few casualties themselves. (this raid included the award of the first two Military Crosses to AIF officers in France), but while they might be significant to AIF history I don't think these could be called major battles.

Regards
Andrew

[moggs]

Andrew P, on 24 December 2010 - 12:37 AM, said:

When the AIF infantry arrived in France from late March 1916 onwards they were all sent to the region covering Armentiers, Bois Greiner and Fleurbaix (Fromelles) to gain front line experience. The 2nd Division in late March/early April 1916, the 1st Division in April 1916, the 4th Division in June 1916 and the 5th Division in late june early July 1916. (The 3rd Division arrived from England to the Armentieres sector in December 1916)

I haven't got the Digger article in front of me but from recollection the first AIF man killed in France was in December 1915, as part of the Australian Motor Transport Corps in France, the next one being in March 1916 as part of the Australian Heavy Artillery. This was before the AIF infantry had even arrived in France. (Of course there were Australians killed earlier as members of the British forces)

Fromelles would be the first major AIF Battle on the Western Front, I'm not sure if you could refer to Company sized trench raids as major actions in the scale of things. There were instances like the German trench raid on the 11th Battalion on May 30th 1916 that inflicted heavy casualties on the Australians. While the 28th & 26th Battalions launched a very successful trench raid in early June that inflicted damage to the Germans while sustaining just a few casualties themselves. (this raid included the award of the first two Military Crosses to AIF officers in France), but while they might be significant to AIF history I don't think these could be called major battles.

Regards
Andrew

Agree about the use of the term Major battle.  My beef is that the lesser known 'stunts' are being neglected - "saw action" does not necessarily mean Major Battle.

Jonathan

[Andrew P]

moggs, on 24 December 2010 - 03:10 AM, said:

Agree about the use of the term Major battle.  My beef is that the lesser known 'stunts' are being neglected - "saw action" does not necessarily mean Major Battle.

Jonathan

I can see where you are coming from but throughout the whole war there were lesser known stunts which are in the shadow of the major AIF battles, e.g. The 7th Brigade at Flers in November 1916; The Hindenburg Line Outpost actions in early 1917; the 3rd Division raids & actions prior to Messines, the 11th AIF Brigade on the opening day of the Third Battle of Ypres etc etc etc.  Brigade, Battalion, Company and even platoon actions which are bloody interesting but unfortunately don't seem large enough to gain wider coverage.

One way to get these lesser known stunts known more widely is to write about them through magazines such as "Digger", "Wartime" or Sabertache" and bring them to the fore on forums like this.

With the advent of the coming Fromelles Museum I'd like to think that the actions of the AIF in that region are covered, with the focus not just being on the July 19th battle.

Regards
Andrew

[moggs]

Andrew P, on 24 December 2010 - 04:05 AM, said:

One way to get these lesser known stunts known more widely is to write about them through magazines such as "Digger", "Wartime" or Sabertache" and bring them to the fore on forums like this.

With the advent of the coming Fromelles Museum I'd like to think that the actions of the AIF in that region are covered, with the focus not just being on the July 19th battle.

Regards
Andrew

Both good points and I thank you for the time taken to reply.

I just might write for the DIgger magazine - a new year promise!

I , too, hope the Fromelles Museum covers many aspects of the war in the area

All the best

Jonathan

[Blackblue]

Jonathan,
You may be interested to know there was at least one ASC unit in France from around July 1915, working with British units well before the AIF proper arrived. It was the 9th COy AASC, which I understand became the 300th MT Coy, 17th Divisional Supply Column as follows:

http://www.aif.adfa....Code=S.T25.99.1

Alfred Moon was the OC:

http://books.histori...bio_moon-a.html

Embarkation Roll:

http://www.awm.gov.a...5-99-1-0162.pdf

Moon's service record makes interesting reading.

http://recordsearch....Barcode=7986105

Rgds

Tim D

[moggs]

Tim,

I'd forgotten all about this thread.  Thanks for the reminder!

Although it wasn't my original intention to seek info on the first action or service in France by any in the AIF, it has been a pleasure discovering what you and others have offered.  Thank you again.

Jonathan

[BSM]

Blackblue, on 22 August 2012 - 01:02 AM, said:

Jonathan,
You may be interested to know there was at least one ASC unit in France from around July 1915, working with British units well before the AIF proper arrived. It was the 9th COy AASC, which I understand became the 300th MT Coy, 17th Divisional Supply Column as follows:

http://www.aif.adfa....Code=S.T25.99.1

Alfred Moon was the OC:

http://books.histori...bio_moon-a.html

Embarkation Roll:

http://www.awm.gov.a...5-99-1-0162.pdf

Moon's service record makes interesting reading.

http://recordsearch....Barcode=7986105

Rgds

Tim D

Adding a bit more to your post ...
After orders were received via the M.T. Depot, Bulford the D.S.C. (Aust. 9^th Coy or Brit. 300^th Coy) shipped their vehicles to France from Avonmouth and arrived at Rouen via Southampton on the 10^th of July 1915. The D.A.P. (Aust. 8^th Coy or 301^st Brit. Coy) followed the same route arriving in Rouen on the 14^th of July. The D.S.C. therefore were the first A.I.F. Unit to be deployed in France. Both were posted to the British 17^th Division. Shortly after arrival the D.A.P.s were reduced to Sub. Parks. The 301^st Coy. was split in two later becoming the 301^st and 492^nd Companies. The latter supporting the British 23^rd Division.    Regards   Rod