22 replies to this topic

[Andy Wade]

Private Herbert Moore.

Medal card info:
Machine Gun Corps service no. 13958
87 Training Reserve Bn. service no. 5/69001
Victory and British War Medal with the MGC.

Born in Oakworth in November 1885.
Married Eugenie Sellers at Oakworth on 17th December 1907, they had two daughters.
Trade - master painter and decorator.
Resident at 66, Lidget, Oakworth.

Attested for the army on 8th December 1915.
Enlisted with the Machine Gun Corps in December 1916.
Went out to France on  16th September 1917.
December 1917 in hospital and on 7th March 1918 he was discharged with a 100% disability from Nephritis (Kidney disease). This  was directly attributed (by the medical board) to his war service when he suffered from exposure in France.
All this information is recorded on his pension records from Ancestry of which I have a copy.

According to local burial records he died on 6th December 1919 aged 35 years, he was listed as a painter, which matches with his trade on the attestation paper in 1915 and he lived at 66, Lidget, Oakworth which matches with his address on the attestation paper so it's the same man.
I have all the documentation except for a death certificate, but since he was discharged from the army with nephritis contracted as a result of exposure in the trenches is it fair to assume that he should be commemorated by the CWGC?

[Terry Denham]

No you can't make that assumption as you only have half the story.

You need to know the cause of death by obtaining the death certificate. He would only qualify if his cause of death was related to his service.

If the DC says 'died due to nephritis' or similar rather than 'broken neck due to falling down stairs', you will have a case. Simply being discharged as unfit and later dying is not a qualification. There has to be the causal link between service and death.

[Andy Wade]

Terry Denham, on 24 December 2010 - 12:22 PM, said:

No you can't make that assumption as you only have half the story.

You need to know the cause of death by obtaining the death certificate. He would only qualify if his cause of death was related to his service.

If the DC says 'died due to nephritis' or similar rather than 'broken neck due to falling down stairs', you will have a case. Simply being discharged as unfit and later dying is not a qualification. There has to be the causal link between service and death.

OK, thanks Terry. I was leaning towards that being the case but thought I'd confirm it here first.
I'll contact the local cemetery offices first because they usually have cause of death listed in their records. I can't afford to pay for a DC on the off chance that it might not be the case.
On the face of it he's a good candidate but like you say, a causal link is required. At least we have his service records which give the definite medical reason for discharge and they specifically state that his condition was caused by his war service.

Many thanks.

[chrisharley9]

Andy

Would be quite happy to include him in my next batch of post discharge DCs if there is nothing in the cemetery records. Do you know about the IFCP scheme for post discharge cases?

Chris

[Andy Wade]

chrisharley9, on 25 December 2010 - 09:38 AM, said:

Andy

Would be quite happy to include him in my next batch of post discharge DCs if there is nothing in the cemetery records. Do you know about the IFCP scheme for post discharge cases?

Chris

Hi Chris,

Sounds like a good idea to me. I read about the IFCP scheme on these forums earlier this week.
What I do know from talking to the people at the local authority cemetery offices regarding other men, is that their records showing cause of death are taken from the death certificates in the first place, so it's pretty much a given that if their records specify that he died from kidney failure then the DC will say the same and we can then follow it back to the medical reports from the army to link in with the required criteria for CWGC inclusion.
I'll try to get down to the cemetery offices between Christmas and the New Year and see what their records say and if it's worth coughing up for the DC.
Many thanks for this.

Hope you're having a good Christmas, if Herbert Moore's case comes true it will be a great start to the year!

[chrisharley9]

Andy

Xmas not going to bad thanks very much; hope yours is good

Will leave you to visit the cemetery office. What area does the cemetery office cover as I may ask for some Brookwood look ups if you do not mind helping out

Chris

[Andy Wade]

Yeah, it's been a long and exciting day and the children are in bed now so it's a bit of down time for us.

It's the Keighley and Worth Valley office for the northern bit of Bradford Metropolitan District Council. I think the rest of Bradford is covered by the office at Scholemoor cemetery in Bradford. I had heard that their burial records are also available on disc at Bradford library. Not sure about Keighley but then I'm only up the valley a bit from them anyway and can easily pop in to make enquiries.
Naturally I would be happy to help if I can. You should be able to email me from my profile. If not, PM me and I'll send you my address.

[chrisharley9]

Andy

no one on Brookwood at Keighley or district; have got one possible at Brownroyd

Chris

[Andy Wade]

OK, send me the details and I'll take a look for you.

Andy.

[chrisharley9]

Will do later mate; the club is calling me at the moment

Chris

[chrisharley9]

Andy

DC arrived today; cause of death Nephritis

Any news on a grave at all

Chris

[Andy Wade]

I've been to the grave spot at Oakworth cemetery for Herbert Moore. There's no headstone in place at all, a blank plot. Next door is Private Sam Rainford, another blank plot. He's the man who died from TB who couldn''t be confirmed as having been discharged with TB as his Army records didn't survive so he'll probably never have a CWGC stone (assuming he was entitled anyway). I just thought it was interesting that he was in the next burial plot.

Regarding Arnold Smith, I found his grave for you this morning, it's a blank plot in Scholemoor Cemetery in Bradford, just half a mile from where he lived (and died) in Brownroyd, Bradford:

Burial record for Arnold Smith
26 years old - Insurance agent
95, Bingley Street.
Died at above address.
Burial date 15th January 1919.
L - con - 640.

[Andy Wade]

Herbert Moore's burial plot is in Keighley (Oakworth) Cemetery. Section A, Grave 16. This is to the right of the grave of his parents Ezra and Sarah and his eldest sister Bertha which is grave A 17 in this picture:

 Moore_H-graveplot.jpg   73.92K   1 downloads

[chrisharley9]

MOORE, HERBERT

Rank: Private Service No: 13958 Date of Death: 03/12/1919 Age: 35 Regiment/Service: Machine Gun Corps (Infantry) 206 Coy Grave Reference A16 Cemetery KEIGHLEY (OAKWORTH) CEMETERY

Additional Information:


Husband of Eugenie Moore, of Oakworth, Yorkshire.


N.B.


Recent research has shown that Private Moore is buried here. The Commission is in the process of producing a headstone to mark his grave.

[Andy Wade]

chrisharley9, on 09 July 2012 - 04:58 PM, said:

MOORE, HERBERT

Rank: Private Service No: 13958 Date of Death: 03/12/1919 Age: 35 Regiment/Service: Machine Gun Corps (Infantry) 206 Coy Grave Reference A16 Cemetery KEIGHLEY (OAKWORTH) CEMETERY

Additional Information:


Husband of Eugenie Moore, of Oakworth, Yorkshire.


N.B.


Recent research has shown that Private Moore is buried here. The Commission is in the process of producing a headstone to mark his grave.

Hello Chris, Hope you're well, still got your eye on the ball I see!

This is fantastic news, any idea of a possible date for the stone to be fitted? I have contacts with the local British Legion Branch and I'm sure they would like to do something when it has been installed. I'm sure Oakworth Village Society would also like to be involved as well as it's the research I have been doing for them that revealed where he was burried and that he was eligible for a CWGC Commemoration. I'd also like to submit a piece for the local newspaper(s) and would like to credit IFCP's part in this as well.

[chrisharley9]

No idea of dates Andy as these things do tend to take a while

Drop CWGC a line explaining your interest & they will let you know when the new headstone will be in place

Cheers

Chris

[Andy Wade]

Many thanks Chris, I'll contact them about it. I'll post any answer I get on here.

Cheers,
Andy.

[Andy Wade]

I have contacted the local cemetery office who confirmed that they'd received an email about this, but no date for installation of the CWGC headstone.

I have also contacted Sue Berry at CWGC who confirmed the same but said it could take a long time to come, up to a year. She was very interested in a copy of my research which I shall of course forward to them along with copies of service records and if we can find one, a photograph of Herbert. I'm also going to redouble my efforts to find a living relative(s) and will be putting a piece in the local newspaper to see if we can get anyone related to Herbert to come forward. Naturally we're all very pleased at this outcome and the hope is that we can have a service with Standard bearers and the local Vicar/Village Society some time after the headstone has been installed. The local cemetery office said to keep them posted about that and they would inform us to make sure we didn't clash with any funeral service being held at the crematorium ...which is very close by in the cemetery.

Incidentally, by an incredible coincidence the adjoining plot 'A 15' is that of Private Sam Rainford who died of TB about a year after leaving the Army but we haven't been able to make a 'war attributable' link to his death as his service records are missing, presumably destroyed in the blitz. His death certificate just gives Tuberculosis as the cause of death which could quite possibly have been from him working in the woollen trade. I think he should have a CWGC headstone, but I'm afraid it's just a gut feeling on my part without sufficient proof to convince the MOD so he'll remain unmarked.

[chrisharley9]

Andy

Would that be Sam Rainford of 15 Dock Royd Oakworth?

Chris

[Andy Wade]

Yes, that's him. (I can see his house on Dockroyd from my front window) I had some contact from his great niece about him and you and I also corresponded about him some time ago but had no luck with the service records.

Edited to add: The service records we did find were from 1908 so no Great War service giving a reason for his early discharge.

Andy.

[chrisharley9]

Andy

have found a service record but this only shows pre war service & has no bearing on his death

Chris

[Andy Wade]

Still awaiting installation of the stone (which has been described as imminent by CWGC) but we've got the local newspaper (Keighley News) to run a story about Private Herbert Moore to see if we can get any relatives to contact us. We're planning a dedication ceremony when the CWGC stone has been installed. I managed to get a credit in the news article for the 'In From the Cold Project' as well:

Keighley News: Roll of honour eulogy to Oakworth War Soldier

Men of Worth page - Herbert Moore

[Andy Wade]

Hello Chums,

I had the great pleasure of meeting one of Herbert's Granddaughters today along with her son and shared with them the information that has been discovered so far about Herbert. They brought along a photograph of Herbert which I never expected to see after all this time researching him. They are happy for there to be some kind of dedication ceremony at Herbert's grave once the CWGC stone is in place. We will need to discuss the details of the ceremony but there's time to do that in the next couple of months. Anyway, here's the man himself with his wife Eugenie and their daughters Mary and Dorothy (baby). If anyone can spot anything notable about his uniform I would appreciate it. Looks like a leather belt but I thought they were much earlier? I would appreciate it if anyone could confirm or deny that one way or the other.

Herbert Moore attested to the Army Reserve on 8/12/1915.
Mobilised to 87th Training Reserve Battalion on 14/12/16.
Transferred to M.G.C. on 17/2/1917.
Went to France with B.E.F. on 25/4/1917.
Discharged from M.G.C. with Nephritis (caused by exposure in the trenches) on 17/3/1918.
Died of Nephritis on 3/12/1919.

 Moore, Herbert.jpg   110.2K   0 downloads