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Train crash 11/3/1915 in France?


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#1 skipman

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Posted 08 January 2011 - 08:54 PM

I was talking to the Grand-daughter of a VC recipient George de Cardonnel Elmsall Findlay RE. She mentioned that he had a brother Robin, who was killed in a terrible train crash. I was assumimg she meant the Quintishill rail crash. CWGC has him as Cpt Robert de Cardonnel Findlay He is commemorated on Le Touret Memorial. There are over 40, 4th Bn Seaforth Highlanders killed on 11/3/1915. Does anyone know of a train crash in France at this time involving the 4th Bn Seaforth Highlanders, or is her story wrong?

Mike

#2 KevinBattle

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Posted 08 January 2011 - 09:16 PM

Well, the Battle of Neuve Chapelle was raging at that time, which is the most likely reason for the Seaforth casualties. Can't find any easy reference to a troop train crash that date. perhaps two tragic events have become mixed over the years?

#3 skipman

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Posted 08 January 2011 - 09:38 PM

Thanks Kevin. I have looked at some of the men on SDGW, and the ones I looked at are KIA. Then checking CWGC, over 90% of them are commemorated on Le Touret Memorial. Is it unusual, that of 40 men or more, KIA, the vast majority are commemorated on Le Touret?
A very high percentage.

Mike

#4 museumtom

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Posted 08 January 2011 - 09:50 PM

I seem to remember a big train crash in Scotland around that time. Was that the one you speak of?

#5 skipman

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Posted 08 January 2011 - 09:57 PM

View Postmuseumtom, on 08 January 2011 - 09:50 PM, said:

I seem to remember a big train crash in Scotland around that time. Was that the one you speak of?

Hi Tom. When I spoke to her I presumed that was the one she meant. (Quintishill) but after finding his CWGC entry, it was obviously not that one. Her story regarding the brother that won the VC, was correct ( under fire leading men over va bridge etc ) so I thought there may be some truth in the train crash story. The 4th Bn diary might solve it, if any has it?

Cheers Mike

#6 truthergw

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Posted 08 January 2011 - 09:57 PM

As Kevin says, They were killed in that area. They fought at N.C. and at Aubers Ridge. At the second battle they suffered losses of 3 officers and 172 O.R.s

#7 skipman

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Posted 08 January 2011 - 10:05 PM

Thanks Tom. It looks like her story is wrong then. I wonder where the train story came from? The next time I see her, I will ask for more details.

Cheers Mike

#8 daggers

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Posted 09 January 2011 - 09:38 AM

The book 'Engines of War (How wars were won & lost on the railways)' by Christian Wolmar tells of three railway disasters in WW1: Quintinshill, as mentioned in posts here, one on the Russian front and the third, on 12 Dec 1917 at Saint-Michel-de-Maurienne which he calls 'by far the deadliest in Western Europe to this day'.  However this took place in the Alps and there is no reference to the involvement of British troops.
This may help, if only for elimination.
D

#9 Phil_B

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Posted 09 January 2011 - 11:46 AM

I came across this in a medals list:-
'A sad death has befallen Pte George Gabites, Manchester Regiment who lived at 7 Bold Street, Moss Side, Manchester. He was on his way home on leave after serving 13 months in France when he was killed, the result of a railway accident. Gabites who was 22 years olf age, was before the War a Designer and was employed by Mr Kueneman of Withington.' The son of George and Ellen Gabites of 7 Bold Street. Moss Side, Manchester he now rests in Gezaincourt Communal Cemetery, France.

I was surprised to see a fatal rail accident so close to the front that the man would be buried at Gezaincourt. Perhaps there were more "rail accidents" than we realize or maybe it`s some kind of euphemysm? Shelling maybe?

#10 Schoolie37

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Posted 12 March 2011 - 11:07 AM

As secretary of the LYON Branch of the RBL, I have just been contacted by a French amateur historian who lives in the Alps. he is working on the appalling rail accident which took place on 12 December 1917. This involved a troop train taking French soldiers home for Christmas leave. The train was packed tight with men, and the authorities kept on adding coaches. Finally, the driver refused to go any further,saying it was far too dangerous. He was ordered to continue and he obeyed. On a down slope, the brakes couldn't work with all the weight. The sparks from the brakes set fire to the wodden coaches. Then the whole train came off the rails. Over 400 men were killed. This is the accident Daggers refers to, but he beleived no British troops were involved.

In fact there were British troops there. I understand that a British convoy coming in the opposite direction (I think it could have been 7th Division troops moving to the Italian front) stopped to help with rescue operations. I expect to get a relevant newspaper article soon, but it seems at the time the local people were particularly admirative of the efforts made by "kilted troops" to get the injured and dying out, and give first aid. I don't know who the Highlanders would have been, although 2nd Bn Gordon Highlanders were in 20th Brigade, which was part of 7th Division, at the time.

This doesn't help with the original query, as the dates are wrong, but it is another of these fascinating snippets of information we just don't suspect. As it happens, my correspondent told me about five British servicemen buried in our local CWGC cemetery (between 1916 and 1919 there was a transit camp in a village on the main line here where aboout a hundred men died as a result of wounds or - very often- pneumonia, and especially Spanish flu).The five men he mentions had been killed also in rail accidents in the Alps, in 1917,  and had been reburied here in 1951...  And I thought I knew all about the men in those graves !

Schoolie37.

#11 skipman

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Posted 12 March 2011 - 05:51 PM

Thanks Schoolie, very interesting. There's always more to find out eh?

Mike

#12 Kwachman

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Posted 22 July 2012 - 02:12 PM

Sorry if this has been resolved; I have just joined this forum having begun some research on my great-uncle Charles Grant Tennant of the Seaforth Highlanders, killed in 1915  - Capt. Robert de Cardonnel Findlay, who was killed in March 1915, was probably a cousin of George de Cardonnel Elmsall Findlay, VC. George was son of Robert Emsall Findlay and he had a brother Robert (Robin often being a diminutive of Robert) Scott Findlay, a Captain in the Argyll and Sutherlands, who was killed in the Gretna Green (Quintinshill) rail disaster. Captain Robert de C Findlay is mentioned in my great-uncle's war diary entry for Sunday 7th March as having "arrived today after spending some time at Havre on the way from Bedford: he is attached to our company as junior captain...". He was killed three days later on 11th - "Poor Findlay was killed stone dead by a shell just before the advance started."

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#13 skipman

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Posted 22 July 2012 - 05:25 PM

Thanks for that Kwachman. i will study that later, very interesting.

Cheers Mike

#14 davidmacsapper

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Posted 24 July 2012 - 09:18 PM

Hi, The Quintinshill disaster took place on 22 May 1915 (Also referred to as the Gretna disaster). The troops involved were 7th Royal Scots of which out of 485 offocers and men 214 were killed. 4th Seaforths were raised in Ross-shire and their casualties would be expected to be reported in their local papers such as Ross-shire Journal and North Star might provide further information even if the officer in question might have a tenuous connection with Ross-shire.
Regards David.