78 replies to this topic

[Bardess]

One thing that I can't visualise is the sheer numbers involved. Could you maybe flag on a map the addresses of the men who joined in 1914, another one with 1915 etc and possibly a final one for 1918 showing those that returned?

Have you considered a re-enactment of any sort?

[dycer]

Diane,
Even that may be difficult.
The Street geography and Houses of British Towns have changed dramatically over the past 100 years,thanks to Town planners and a certain gentleman? of Austrian extraction in the 1940's.
George

[John Hartley]

Alan Tucker, on 12 January 2011 - 08:48 AM, said:

Er when the veterans march parade the Cenotaph on Remembrance Sunday this is not a triumphant celebration!

Without wishing us to drift too far away from geraint's OP, I'd take the view that, whilst this may be true now, the intent was not always such.

I'd suggest that the commissioning of the Cenotaph was a very political decision and that, in particular, references to the "glorious dead" were inherently intended to be celebratory.

[David Faulder]

John Hartley, on 27 January 2011 - 12:07 PM, said:

Without wishing us to drift too far away from geraint's OP, I'd take the view that, whilst this may be true now, the intent was not always such.

I'd suggest that the commissioning of the Cenotaph was a very political decision and that, in particular, references to the "glorious dead" were inherently intended to be celebratory.

Whilst agreeing that the commissioning of the Cenotaph may have been political, I don't think references to the "Glorious Dead" were celebratory in the sense that we now understand celebration.

I think it is more an echo of religious belief of the time.  I am not an expert (or believer) but, I find:

• Book of Common Prayer: Burial Service
  • So also is the resurrection of the dead: It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory:
  • that we, with all those that are departed in the true faith of thy holy Name,may have our perfect consummation and bliss, both in body and soul, in thy eternal and everlasting glory;
• Other Funeral Prayers
  • (Lord Jesus, our redeemer) So we commend [Name] into your arms of mercy,
    believing that, with sins forgiven,
    he/she will share a place of happiness, light and peace
    in the kingdom of your glory for ever.
• Romans 2:7 (KJV)
  • To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
• Biblical Quotes in Handel's Messiah
  • (Isaiah 60: 2-3) For behold, darkness shall cover the earth, and gross darkness the  people; but the Lord shall arise upon thee, and His glory shall be seen  upon thee.
  • (Revelation 5: 12-14) Worthy is the Lamb that was slain, and hath redeemed us to God by His blood, to receive power, and riches, and wisdom,
    and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.
    Blessing and honour, glory and power, be unto Him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb, for ever and ever.

I suspect that the idea that those who died (fighting on the side of righteousness) now sit in glory in heaven was a very potent source of comfort in the early 20th century.

David

[geraint]

John - point taken regarding the fine line between sincere remembrance and triumphalism. The legion would have first call on the ceremonial aspects and the annual remembrance parade and service is certainly not 'triumphant;.

Diane - Excellent idea regarding street map of casualties - despite George's reference to major changes. It would certainly work in this town. (101 deaths, location of address of 98 known).
Re-enacttment. Again to be pertinent and authentic, avoiding cheap jack circus shows! A colleague has contacted The Great War Society for recreating a CCS. I know nothing of them. Anyone with info on them?

David - local newspapers were a major source in my researches here. Another excellent idea.

Andy - the more I think of it - the more I'm looking forward to meet the County Curator!

Thanks all!

[Andy Wade]

We're hoping to have an interactive map showing where  men were living when they joined up and how the death/injury rates  affected each street/village/town. Apparently this can all be linked  from the database but it seems a lofty idea to me at the moment. I'm  assured it can be done though.

[David Underdown]

Certainly the planning of the unveiling of the permanent Cenotaph in 1920 does not seem to me to be celebratory in character, the final plans are in CAB 24/114, and can be freely downloaded from http://nationalarchi...Edoc_Id=8052961.  This of course took place on the same occasion as the interment of the Unknown Warrior, so was planned as an extremely solemn event, the committee notes revealing the steps that were taken to allow as many of the bereaved as possible to be able to line the route from Whitehall to Westminster Abbey, and be accommodated in the Abbey itself, and that the "private soldier" (their emphasis) should be to the fore.

[dycer]

It would be nice to think that WW1 Centenary events were bottom led e.g. as Geraint proposes and others,on the Forum are thinking about,however,I fear it will become top led,i.e. by our National/Local Political Leaders or National Media Barons.
I agree entirely with David's point,that the truly independent local Newspapers, should take a lead in publicising and seeking local information but share requests,for information,etc, with their counterparts,throughout the Land,because it was to those Local Newspapers,in WW1,to my mind,that the populace,of a particular locality,primarily sought information about "their men" and either felt the need to formally report a personal loss or was done,on their behalf.
George

[David Underdown]

Looks like IWM is taking the lead for national commemorations http://www.iwm.org.u.../show/nav.24526

[Andy Wade]

dycer, on 27 January 2011 - 04:51 PM, said:

It would be nice to think that WW1 Centenary events were bottom led e.g. as Geraint proposes and others,on the Forum are thinking about,however,I fear it will become top led,i.e. by our National/Local Political Leaders or National Media Barons.
I agree entirely with David's point,that the truly independent local Newspapers, should take a lead in publicising and seeking local information but share requests,for information,etc, with their counterparts,throughout the Land,because it was to those Local Newspapers,in WW1,to my mind,that the populace,of a particular locality,primarily sought information about "their men" and either felt the need to formally report a personal loss or was done,on their behalf.
George

Damn good point.
If you don't mind, I will shamelessly nick that when I'm addressing the Town Council and our local newspaper editors. Our local newspaper featured pictures of the men on page 3 every week during the war and this is the basis for my project. Over 2500 pictures in all over a four year period.

[dycer]

Andy,
David has identified,that the IWM chooses to wish to become a Country, wide identification of our Countries,gains and losses
But I look upon my WW1 Uncles Medal's merely as means to a current or future School child Project.
However, I will have reservations,as to whether a kid,in 2014 will want my Tesco's or other Vouchers that they wish to hand in, for their education , my Uncle's 1914 Star.
My bottom line.is I've I have had cold telephone sellers and cold callers,etc to my house.
But surely that what was the the WW1 generation died for?
George

[geraint]

David - that's a very interesting link, and one I shall respond to following preliminary meetings and an actual intention declared.
Not sure if I follow you there George. IWM taking a lead role sounds good to me considering the material that they have, Hopefully they will release prime material on a countrywide basis rather than keeping it all in the IWM in London. I wouldn't mind a tank on our High Street for a week or so! (Not quite tongue in cheek!)

[Andy Wade]

Sorry George, I don't understand half of what you've written. Maybe I'm being thick but it doesn't even scan properly.

[dycer]

Andy/Geraint,
I choose not to conspire with your Centennial wishes.
David Underdown has found a link that suggests the Imperial War Museum wishes to "lead" Centenary events.
We have members,on the Forum,who choose to collect and fire WWI weapons,or collect and identify Badges,etc.
Surely the IWM has a full collection of WW1 weapons,Badges.Uniforms etc that the Forum Collector would covet and Forum Members' are playing catch up.
If between 2014 and 2018 a school-child asks me for any Supermarket Vouchers I'll oblige,equally if they ask me for a WW1 Medal to help them I'll oblige .
George

[Andy Wade]

dycer, on 27 January 2011 - 08:49 PM, said:

Andy/Geraint,
I choose not to conspire with your Centennial wishes.
George

Fine, I didn't ask you to. You seem to be on some kind of a crusade here that's beyond my understanding. I'll carry on regardless if that's OK with you George. I have already registered with the IWM for my project for the Centennial event(s).

[dycer]

Andy,
I meant "conspire against"
Sorry.
George

[Andy Wade]

dycer, on 28 January 2011 - 05:26 AM, said:

Andy,
I meant "conspire against"
Sorry.
George

Ah I see. None taken.
I thought it was a bit odd you making some excellent suggestions then saying you didn't want to be involved.

[geraint]

I just quietly ponder such etheral statements and let it all come out in the wash!

[MelPack]

geraint, on 27 January 2011 - 01:53 PM, said:

Diane - Excellent idea regarding street map of casualties - despite George's reference to major changes. It would certainly work in this town. (101 deaths, location of address of 98 known).

Geraint

Why not push Diane's idea a little further and have a biography and photo of the soldier attached to the surviving houses that were their homes (with the owner's consent off course). The coverage could even be extended to those men who survived that have service papers intact.

It wouldn't necessarily be expensive - an A4 sheet in sealed pespex would work perfectly well.

Mel

[Andy Wade]

Cracking idea. Since we are producing biographies on men - with pictures in a lot of cases. We could do exactly that.
A4 laminated would be the cheapest option as laminating sheets are only about 10 pence each when they're on special offer from Aldi. (which is about every three months).
After a time any children living at that address or even next door could take the sheet into school for a show and tell session (or similar) and the school could make them up into a larger display that's relevant to them.

MelPack, on 28 January 2011 - 02:57 PM, said:

Geraint

Why not push Diane's idea a little further and have a biography and photo of the soldier attached to the surviving houses that were their homes (with the owner's consent off course). The coverage could even be extended to those men who survived that have service papers intact.

It wouldn't necessarily be expensive - an A4 sheet in sealed pespex would work perfectly well.

Mel

[CarylW]

Geraint

I've been adding to my Birkenhead memorial site casualties street by street for some time now. Have a lot more to upload and by 2014 I'm hoping to have every street where there were casualties listed. Main source CWGC via Geoff's search and local newspapers. The biographies that have been uploaded are on the main alphabetical listing pages and not all the men are listed on the memorial itself. Lot's more to upload, a great deal to do and sometimes life gets in the way!

http://freepages.gen...18/Streets.html

Caryl

[Andy Wade]

That's tremendous Caryl. A great idea.

[geraint]

Isn't it great how a brainstorm like this really comes up with ideas that could work!!  The street casualties as school projects could certainly be effective! We have a scarecrow trail hjere, and the principle could be easily applied to an educational Great War Trail - not only casualties, but locations and narratives regarding the Red Cross Hospital, local Belgian Refugees location, pow camp less than a mile from town. Great ideas.
Ponder ponder, mull, mull; chewed cudd etc!

[Andy Wade]

We have three supermarkets that sit on land formerly occupied by streets that had casualties living there before the war. I'm considering contacting them to see if they'd be interested in funding/supporting/whatever a display that shows this in their stores at the time. They could even keep the display up until Remembrance Day and place their own poppy wreath there to show support for this. Assuming it's not viewed as politically incorrect... Some stores have a stronger policy of supporting poppy day sellers more than other stores, apparently.

[Andy Wade]

I was also thinking about the 'sticking an A4 biography on a house'. It doesn't have to be done like that but could go on to a post stuck into the garden near the front gate so passers by could read it.
Mull mull chew chew...