15 replies to this topic

[squirrel]

I have seen in several UK cemeteries screen walls with names commemorating WW1 and WW2 casualties buried in the cemeteries - why do these casualties not have individually marked graves?

[Terry Denham]

It is often because the casualties are buried in common graves with other persons. Local authorities do not usually allow headstones on common graves.

A screen wall can also be used if an area is unstable or the authority wishes to keep it clear of headstones.

[squirrel]

Terry,

thank you for a prompt response - much appreciated.

[judy7007]

Terry Denham, on 24 January 2011 - 05:10 PM, said:

A screen wall can also be used if an area is unstable or the authority wishes to keep it clear of headstones.

I have occasionally wondered why this plot of consecrated ground at a cemetery not so far from me has only a few headstones in the first few rows and then the rest of the plot is a grassy mound.  In this plot there are some WWI casualties who are commemorated on the Screen Wall within the cemetery.  Quite some time ago, a council officer was extremely helpful in leaving a marker on the grave of a casualty buried in this plot so I could identify the actual burial spot.  I wondered why no headstone had been erected but it is most probably for the reason(s) above.  Many thanks
Judy  

[attachment=134326:Z plot.JPG]

[Phil Evans]

Squirrel and Judy,

That looks very much like part of Plot D at Ladywell Cemetery. If that is the case, certainly some of the men there died at the two military hospitals, Lewisham and Bermondsey (Ladywell). Many were, however, local men. There are up to fourteen individual burials in a single numbered plot.
This appears to have become known, at the time, as "Heroes Corner" and from what I can make out from contemporary newspaper reports, was a conscious decision by the local authority to set the area aside for the war dead. The adjoining Brockley Cemetery had it's own Heroes Corner and subsequent screen wall.

Phil

[squirrel]

Thanks Phil,

I am puzzled as to why some were interred in individual graves and some interred in multiple graves. I wonder who took the decision? The hospitals, Army, Local Authorities or the families?

[Phil Evans]

The local authorities owned and maintained the cemeteries, so I guess it was their decision.

Although I have spent a lot of time on Ladywell, I must admit, I have never analysed it in that way.

It's also got me thinking whether "Heroe's Corner" is a purely local thing.

Phil

[judy7007]

Phil Evans, on 24 January 2011 - 10:04 PM, said:

That looks very much like part of Plot D at Ladywell Cemetery.Phil

Hi Phil

It is Plot Z at Ladywell which is not a cemetery I go to often but I was searching for some casualties there about a year ago.  A casualty buried there was in the Women's Royal Air Force and her name appears on the screen wall with a grave reference alongside her name.  It has Z CON in front of the plot number whereas some of the others just had Z and then the number so maybe not all the ground there is consecrated.    I wondered at the time, why when it was known where she was buried, a CWGC headstone was not placed over her (and of other casualties in Z Plot)    It seems it was most likely a Council decision at the time.  Thank you for the interesting information.  

Judy

[CGM]

Shared (common graves) were quite usual in London at that time. The cost of anything else was often beyond what folks could afford. Even if it was possible to pay for a family grave the expense of a gravestone was often impossible to meet, so family graves are often unmarked. Some of my great and great great relatives are in unmarked common graves in Tottenham Cemetery.

There was a Heroes Corner in Tottenham Cemetery but the name has slipped out of use and the staff there haven't heard of it.

I don't think there's much doubt that it's the two grassed areas enclosed by the hedges in this photo. There are no headstones here. Names of Great War casualties are listed on the screen wall.



Click on the thumbnail to enlarge.

More to follow!

[judy7007]

There is a Heroes Corner at Greenwich

[attachment=134369:102small.jpg]

Judy

[CGM]

As promised...

This is a very interesting thread. There are no Australian casualties in common graves in Tottenham (and possibly everywhere else in the UK?) due to their government's intervention, even if it meant exhumation and re-internment.

See here.

Regards
CGM

[squirrel]

Thanks for all your comments and to CGM for the link to the previous thread.

[Charles Booth]

At Arnos Vale Cemetery, Bristol, there is an area in front of a large screen wall memorial, called Soldiers' Corner. The land was originally bought by the Red Cross, who also paid for the memorial. The plots were originally marked with (non-IWGC) stones, flush to the ground and inscribed with the plot number and the name(s) of the casualty or casualties interred in the plot (up to six per plot). I have photos if anyone is interested. The CWGC took over the site in 1981.  The stones were removed some years ago (unsure of dates or who was responsible) and the ground returfed. One new flush stone to Harry Wood, VC, was added in 2001. It may be that some other cemeteries had non-IWGC stones that were subsequently 'tidied up', perhaps?

Single plots appear to have been reserved for Corporal Wood (d. 1924), for the single British officer buried there, and for the Australians and the Canadians. There is a mystery figure on his own who I believe might have been an American officer - I and some colleagues are investigating. There is one Newfoundlander in a shared plot. Several of the Australians and Canadians were originally buried in shared plots and were later exhumed and re-buried on their own. Communal burial for the Australians ceased sometime between January and April 1917: all subsequent burials were in single plots, and all previous Australian casualties were exhumed and re-buried. The Canadian picture is less clear. Shared plots were being used as late as January 1918 (with subsequent exhumations and reburial), while the first single burial of a Canadian serviceman was in January 1917 (all dates from CWGC).

Best wishes

Charles

EDIT: PS There are one or two other Australians and Canadians (and one American) who enlisted in British Army units. These men are all buried in shared plots.

[Phil Evans]

Fascinating,

CGM's thread was most interesting and Charles's findings would bear it out. The three Australians in Ladywell are buried in singly marked graves, side by side, in isolation from any other war graves. There is a fourth, but he had local connections and is in a private grave.

Judy, you have answered a question for me. Plot Z is, by a quirk of the original layout,in Brockley Cemetery. Why the screen wall is so far away from the plot, I don't know. On one of my maps there is also a feint line that could mean that it was divided into consecrated and non-consecrated areas.

Phil

[CGM]

I'm not sure I made it clear in my post that there was no disrespect in burying Great War casualties  in common or public graves if they died, for example, in local military hospitals.
Common, or public graves belonged to the cemetery owners and were gradually filled with unrelated people who died over a short time. The burials were paid for, but the ground was not purchased. It was a very widespread occurrence.
These burials were not the same as paupers burials where the burial itself had to be paid for by public funds.)

In order to be buried in a private grave, (what I called family grave), with no unrelated people, the plot of ground had to be purchased and the purchaser then had the right to determine who was buried there. This was obviously not appropriate or possible for many casualties.
The Australian government decided that all its citizens must be interred in private graves and the UK government agreed to this.

(I do wonder if common graves just didn't exist in Australia, so the government couldn't countenance its citizens being buried in this way...?)

Regards
CGM

[judy7007]

Phil Evans, on 25 January 2011 - 08:31 PM, said:

Plot Z is, by a quirk of the original layout,in Brockley Cemetery. Why the screen wall is so far away from the plot, I don't know. On one of my maps there is also a feint line that could mean that it was divided into consecrated and non-consecrated areas.

Thanks Phil - yes the Screen Wall and Plot Z in Brockley are quite a long way away from each other.   However as regards no headstones on Plot Z, I am wondering if this is an area that Terry referred to that is/was either unstable or they wished to keep clear of headstones.   "A screen wall can also be used if an area is unstable or the authority wishes to keep it clear of headstones".   There are some headstones in the first couple of rows of Plot Z and then the rest of the mound is grassy.  I have a detailed plan of Plot Z and most certainly there are burials over the whole of the plot (a few of them WWI casualties).  All fascinating ...
Judy