22 replies to this topic

[The Monkey God]

Hello,

Can anyone assist me with the following enquiry? I`d like to try & ascertain whether soldiers whose sole entitlement is the British War Medal, will their MIC give the date that they arrived in theatre?

Does this still apply to post 1916 deployments?


If his Regiment was already stationed in India for example, would the MIC assuming they do bear the date, or just give the date that the war started?


Also are there any other theatres, other than India whereby soldiers would only be entitled to the BWM?

Fingers crossed someone can help me with this.

G.

[Piorun]

If he's entitled to the BWM, it would be most unusual if he wasn't also entitled to the VM. Was your man Indian Army or British in India? I believe dates were dropped in 1915 and just the theatre note. "5" included India, I think, then "g". Antony

[The Monkey God]

Piorun, on 03 February 2011 - 01:31 PM, said:

If he's entitled to the BWM, it would be most unusual if he wasn't also entitled to the VM. Was your man Indian Army or British in India? I believe dates were dropped in 1915 and just the theatre note. "5" included India, I think, then "g". Antony

Thanks for your reply Antony, thats what I would have thought to, however, I`ve come across several recently, most of which appeared to have `died` as apposed to KIA or DOW, if that makes a difference. They where buried in such places as Dehli &Peshwar if memoey serves me well.  The 2nd Battalion of the Liverpool Regiment rings a bell as well, if that helps. Gordon.

[ulsterlad2]

In order to qualify for the BWM you had to enter a theatre of war or leave your native shore. (Except moving between UK islands). So going to India would qualify.

But to get the Victory medal you had to enter a theatre of war and India was not on the list. I think Malta was another place where you could get the BWM only.

[Waggoner]

For Canadians, the UK also qualitifed. I seem to recall reading that the RN could receive the BWM while still serving in home waters.

All the best,

Gary

[ulsterlad2]

Hi Gary. That's because they left their native shore in order to reach the UK. What I meant by (Except moving between UK islands) was that if you lived in the UK, moving from the Shetland Islands to Wales or from England to Ireland didn't qualify for the BWM.

[SteveE]

ulsterlad2, on 03 February 2011 - 03:26 PM, said:

if you lived in the UK, moving from the Shetland Islands to Wales or from England to Ireland didn't qualify for the BWM.

There was one exception where the BWM was earnt without leaving home shores....http://1914-1918.inv...1

Regards

Steve

[The Monkey God]

ulsterlad2, on 03 February 2011 - 03:05 PM, said:

In order to qualify for the BWM you had to enter a theatre of war or leave your native shore. (Except moving between UK islands). So going to India would qualify.

But to get the Victory medal you had to enter a theatre of war and India was not on the list. I think Malta was another place where you could get the BWM only.

Thats been a great help, many thanks.

But just to clarify, if a Regiment, was already stationed in India, and soldiers therein spent their entire war service therein then they`d only get the BWM. Regiments that where sent to India after the war started, but only served therein would only get the BWM.

If this is the case can anyone tell me which Regiments these were?

[Matthew B.]

The Monkey God, on 04 February 2011 - 11:36 AM, said:

Thats been a great help, many thanks.

But just to clarify, if a Regiment, was already stationed in India, and soldiers therein spent their entire war service therein then they`d only get the BWM. Regiments that where sent to India after the war started, but only served therein would only get the BWM.

If this is the case can anyone tell me which Regiments these were?

Monkey God,

I do think a slight clarification is still required around the award of the BWM as a sole entitlement for service in India.

If you were in a British Regiment stationed in India before the out break of war, served in India through out the war and was never involved in any active service that could earn you medals from inside India (such as certain action on the North West Frontier in 1915 for instance could earn you a 1914/15 trio) you were entitled to nothing. Just as if you were a pre-war regular who spent his entire war training soldier at Catterick for instance. No campaign medal awarded.

If you were posted to India from the U.K. after the outbreak of war and were never involved in any active service that could earn you medals from inside India (such as certain action on the North West Frontier for instance) you were entitled to a British War Medal for leaving the UK and going to India.
I have seen this happen with officer cadets being sent from the UK to India to attend Quetta or Wellington cadet colleges getting the BWM because they left the UK and travelled to India.

I hope that is clear. As others pointed out the award of a single BWM was not just limited to going to India.

Regards,

Matthew

[The Monkey God]

Matthew B., on 06 February 2011 - 03:01 PM, said:

Monkey God,

I do think a slight clarification is still required around the award of the BWM as a sole entitlement for service in India.

If you were in a British Regiment stationed in India before the out break of war, served in India through out the war and was never involved in any active service that could earn you medals from inside India (such as certain action on the North West Frontier in 1915 for instance could earn you a 1914/15 trio) you were entitled to nothing. Just as if you were a pre-war regular who spent his entire war training soldier at Catterick for instance. No campaign medal awarded.

If you were posted to India from the U.K. after the outbreak of war and were never involved in any active service that could earn you medals from inside India (such as certain action on the North West Frontier for instance) you were entitled to a British War Medal for leaving the UK and going to India.
I have seen this happen with officer cadets being sent from the UK to India to attend Quetta or Wellington cadet colleges getting the BWM because they left the UK and travelled to India.

I hope that is clear. As others pointed out the award of a single BWM was not just limited to going to India.

Regards,

Matthew

Many many thanks for that Mathew thats been a great help!!

I assume then, that the MIC will confirm sole entitlement and give the `theatre` for which this medal was awarded?

Gordon.

[krw2008]

Monkey God,

With respect, I think Matthew is not correct.

A British soldier that was serving in India at the start of the war and served in India throughout would earn a BWM.

Broadly speaking the criteria for the award of the BWM was service overseas, but there was no requirement that a soldier had to be in the UK when the war started.

The above applies to the British army.  There were expections for other forces.  For example, South Africans could get a BWM for service in South Africa.  Similarly, members of the IDF got a BWM for service in India even though this was their place of residence.  

There were several regular British units that only qualified for the BWM.  Check the Long, Long Trail for details, but they included 2n Bn King's (Liverpool Regiment) and the 2nd Bn Somerset Light Infantry.  The 21st Lancers is another example.  They were based in India for the full war and most of their men only received the BWM although a service squadron went to France in 1916.

Hope this helps.

Kenneth

[The Monkey God]

krw2008, on 21 February 2011 - 06:27 PM, said:

Monkey God,

With respect, I think Matthew is not correct.

A British soldier that was serving in India at the start of the war and served in India throughout would earn a BWM.

Broadly speaking the criteria for the award of the BWM was service overseas, but there was no requirement that a soldier had to be in the UK when the war started.

The above applies to the British army.  There were expections for other forces.  For example, South Africans could get a BWM for service in South Africa.  Similarly, members of the IDF got a BWM for service in India even though this was their place of residence.  

There were several regular British units that only qualified for the BWM.  Check the Long, Long Trail for details, but they included 2n Bn King's (Liverpool Regiment) and the 2nd Bn Somerset Light Infantry.  The 21st Lancers is another example.  They were based in India for the full war and most of their men only received the BWM although a service squadron went to France in 1916.

Hope this helps.

Kenneth

Many thanks Kenneth thats been of great help!!!

[NigelS]

ulsterlad2, on 03 February 2011 - 03:05 PM, said:

But to get the Victory medal you had to enter a theatre of war and India was not on the list. I think Malta was another place where you could get the BWM only.

A list of 'Theatres of War'   for the award of the Victory Medal was given in The Times of 2nd September '19. Under '5. Asiatic Theatres' sub section (g.) gives:

In the Frontier regions of  India, carried out by forces which actually took the  field  between August 5, 1914,  and October 31, 1918. The specified military operations, together with the qualifying dates thereof, will be published  in a subsequent Army order.

Subsequently an Army Order, according to The Times of 12th May, '20, was issued which gave:

...to personnel who took part in operations carried out by forces which took the field in the frontier regions of India between August 4, 1914, and November 1, 1918; personnel who served in Mesopotamia, Persia, and the Persian Gulf ports &c., between November 5, 1914, and November 1, 1918, and in later operations on the Indian Frontier, in Mesopotamia, Persia &c., until the ratification of the peace with Turkey.

which, appears to me, to imply that it might have been possible for a man serving in India to gain the Victory medal under certain circumstances. Unfortunately, I haven't been able to track down that details of the specific military operations and the qualifying dates were ever published in The Times though (possibly not considered newsworthy enough); it could be that it was subsequently decided there wasn't any qualifying service, and that therefore medals were never issued! It's interesting to note that with some of the more obscure 'theatres' the qualifying dates can cover just days.

NigelS

[old owl]

krw2008, on 21 February 2011 - 06:27 PM, said:

The 21st Lancers is another example.  They were based in India for the full war and most of their men only received the BWM although a service squadron went to France in 1916.

Kenneth,

With respect, this statement is incorrect, at least in part.  The 21st Lancers were involved in the action at Shabkadar (N.W.Frontier) on 5th September,1915, during which they charged a superior force of Shinwaris.  The 21st suffered in excess of 20 casualties including their C.O., Lt.Col.J.B.Scriven, Killed leading the charge.  For this action they received the 1914/15 Star Trio.

Robert

[The Monkey God]

Thanks for you all your replies guys. Below is a MIC to what seems to be a sole entitlement (other than the IGS). Now I`m assuming that he served in the 1/4th battalion who only served in India, unless anyone else can give me another avenue to explore?

Attached Files

•  MIC Charles Martin.jpg   28.93K   1 downloads

[The Monkey God]

Heres one that I recently added to collection. Its a plaque & scroll to 8850 Pte Charles Finch 2nd Batt East Yorkshire Regiment, he drowned on the 5th November 1914, whilst the battalion was in transit to France from India.

http://www.cwgc.org/...=1499058<br />

I have been unable to find his MIC, so I`m assuming that he wasn`t entitled to any medals (other than the plaque)?

[krw2008]

old owl, on 22 February 2011 - 08:08 PM, said:

Kenneth,

With respect, this statement is incorrect, at least in part.  The 21st Lancers were involved in the action at Shabkadar (N.W.Frontier) on 5th September,1915, during which they charged a superior force of Shinwaris.  The 21st suffered in excess of 20 casualties including their C.O., Lt.Col.J.B.Scriven, Killed leading the charge.  For this action they received the 1914/15 Star Trio.

Robert

Thanks Robert.

I stand corrected!  My interest is the BWM without the Victory Medal so I had not heard of this action before.

Kenneth

[krw2008]

The Monkey God, on 27 February 2011 - 01:29 PM, said:

Heres one that I recently added to collection. Its a plaque & scroll to 8850 Pte Charles Finch 2nd Batt East Yorkshire Regiment, he drowned on the 5th November 1914, whilst the battalion was in transit to France from India.

http://www.cwgc.org/...=1499058<br />

I have been unable to find his MIC, so I`m assuming that he wasn`t entitled to any medals (other than the plaque)?

I think this might be your man.  He is the only Charles Finch that served with East Yorkshire Regiment according to the National Archives.

Kenneth

 php2F31FNPM.jpg   14.36K   0 downloads

[SteveE]

krw2008, on 28 April 2011 - 08:21 PM, said:

I think this might be your man.  He is the only Charles Finch that served with East Yorkshire Regiment according to the National Archives.

Kenneth

With all due respect it's not the same man.  The man you've identified entered a theatre of war a full year after the other Charles Finch died.

I suspect that there isn't a MIC because he wasn't entitled to any medals having been in India when war started and drowning whilst enroute to France, so he never entered a theatre of war.  I have come across men being awarded the BWM having died enroute to theatre but their journey originated in the UK, I wonder what the rule for award was if the soldier was already overseas and the journey to theatre originated elsewhere.

Steve

[krw2008]

SteveE, on 28 April 2011 - 09:40 PM, said:

Kenneth

With all due respect it's not the same man.  The man you've identified entered a theatre of war a full year after the other Charles Finch died.

I suspect that there isn't a MIC because he wasn't entitled to any medals having been in India when war started and drowning whilst enroute to France, so he never entered a theatre of war.  I have come across men being awarded the BWM having died enroute to theatre but their journey originated in the UK, I wonder what the rule for award was if the soldier was already overseas and the journey to theatre originated elsewhere.

Steve

Steve,

I agree it is not the right guy.  I was too busy looking at the name and unit combination.

I think Pte Finch would have got a BWM .  Assuming he was normally a UK resident then since he was in India when the war started he would have qualified for a BWM immediately since he was rendering approved service overseas.  It is strange there is no trace of a MIC.  It could have just gone missing.  There were millions of them so it is not surprising some disappeared.  The medal roll for the East Yorkshires will give the answer.  

The BWM did not need service in a theatre of war.  A member of the British Army just required service away from their country of residence.  For example, any one living abroad who returned to the UK to sign up qualified as soon as they were accepted even if they just stayed in the UK.

Kenneth

[SteveE]

Kenneth

Having now checked through my notes and not relied on memory, whether it was awarded or not needs to be confirmed but he was certainly entitled to the BWM according to Army Order 266 of 1919 under Section 2 of that Order which states:
2. Soldiers of His Majesty’s Regular Forces who were serving abroad between the 5th August, 1914, and the 11th November, 1918.

krw2008, on 29 April 2011 - 12:05 AM, said:

The BWM did not need service in a theatre of war.

Agreed, I hadn't meant to imply that it did but I can now see from what I've written that that is what comes across. I was merely trying to ascertain whether the journey's origin had any implications but that is negated by the fact that entitlement was already determined by him being overseas.

krw2008, on 29 April 2011 - 12:05 AM, said:

A member of the British Army just required service away from their country of residence.  For example, any one living abroad who returned to the UK to sign up qualified as soon as they were accepted even if they just stayed in the UK.

Not convinced on that at all and would welcome any examples.  I still believe that entitlement was only earnt by them then proceeding overseas from the UK (Dominion Forces excepted).  Service in the UK for members of British Forces did not count as entitlement (with the notable exception of the Coastal Defence Batteries in December 1914).

I believe Clause 1 of Army Order 266 makes it clear that service had to be overseas......
1. The undermentioned classes, who either entered a theatre of war on duty, or who left their places of residence and rendered approved service overseas, other than the waters dividing the different parts of the United Kingdom, between the 5th August, 1914, and the 11th November, 1918, both dates inclusive.

I read it that it precludes service in the United Kingdom, including Ireland.

Regards

Steve

[krw2008]

SteveE, on 29 April 2011 - 10:33 AM, said:

Not convinced on that at all and would welcome any examples.  I still believe that entitlement was only earnt by them then proceeding overseas from the UK (Dominion Forces excepted).  Service in the UK for members of British Forces did not count as entitlement (with the notable exception of the Coastal Defence Batteries in December 1914).

I believe Clause 1 of Army Order 266 makes it clear that service had to be overseas......
1. The undermentioned classes, who either entered a theatre of war on duty, or who left their places of residence and rendered approved service overseas, other than the waters dividing the different parts of the United Kingdom, between the 5th August, 1914, and the 11th November, 1918, both dates inclusive.

I read it that it precludes service in the United Kingdom, including Ireland.

Steve,

The second test is if they "left their place of residence and rendered approved service overseas".  If you lived in, say, South Africa and came to the UK then the UK is overseas to your place of residence.

DNW sold a group including a sole entitlement BWM in their last sale on 30-Mar-11.  Lot 195 was the group to Captain & Quartermaster William Cooper, RAMC.  DNW's catalogue stated:

"William Cooper was born on 18 January 1861. He enlisted into the Army in January 1881 and served with the Army Medical Corps. He was the Sergeant-Major in the R.A.M.C. during the defence of Kimberley; and was one of only five members of the corps entitled to the 'Defence of Kimberley' clasp. At the time of the Great war, Cooper was a Pensioner Warrant Officer employed by the Union Defence Department at Potchefstroom. Applying for a temporary commission in the R.A.M.C., he was appointed a Lieutenant and Quartermaster on 7 October 1915 and was promoted to Captain and Quartermaster on 17 May 1916. Requesting service at 'Home', he served throughout the war at the Northamptonshire War Hospital. Captain Cooper was released from military duty on 30 December 1919. With copied m.i.c. and a quantity of service papers and other research."

This is his MIC:

 phpT80L11AM.jpg   61.17K   0 downloads

This is a British award of the BWM for service with the British Army in the UK.  It is not a South African award.

These are rare, but they did happen.

Kenneth

[SteveE]

Kenneth

Thanks for posting the details, you learn something new everyday .  It's a very interesting development and I wonder just how rare that entitlement is, can't be too many?

Regards

Steve