57 replies to this topic

[J Banning]

Just seen this on Twitter. Apologies if it has been posted already. I did a search and couldn't find anything. Good to see that DNA has been of use again in giving this man a named grave. Read more: http://www.edmontonj...1427/story.html

Lawless in the CGWC register: http://www.cwgc.org/...asualty=1570377
Interestingly he is given as being buried in the cemetery. I would have assumed they still would have had him on the Vimy Memorial.

[ph0ebus]

Hi Jeremy,

Thanks so much for sharing this.  I found a second story about this that adds to the story:

Remains of Canadian Soldier Identified

They actually found two sets of remains together...based on the archaeological evidence, at the time he was killed, Pte. Lawless was apparently carrying his wounded pal, Pte. Herbert Peterson of Berry Creek, when a massive artillery explosion left them both dead and buried under earth lifted by the blast.

While Pte. Herbert Peterson was ID'd in 2007 it took an additional four years to ID the remains of Pte. Lawless.  I also leaned about the use of isotopic signatures from the fellow's teeth to conclusively ID him.  The researchers really went the extra mile and it made all the difference.

-Daniel

[Piorun]

Thanks for the posts, lads. Lived in Canada for forty-five years and still a member of the Royal Canadian Legion. Good to find the fallen and to remember    . Antony

[Blackblue]

Top notch...another example of a win for DNA and new technology to give these brave men names.

RIP Privates Lawless and Peterson.

[Blackblue]

Should be of interest to our mates in Canada and elsewhere....well done Canadian DND.

Historic Casualty Identification
BG–11.002 - February 24, 2011

The Government of Canada, the Department of National Defence and the Canadian Forces are dedicated to honouring those who have made the ultimate sacrifice by ensuring that, when possible, they will be identified and buried in a known grave.

Nearly 28 000 members of Canada’s Army, Air Force, and Navy who died in the First and Second World Wars and the Korean War have no known or maintainable grave. The majority of these service personnel – approximately 19 500 – went missing in France and Belgium during the First World War. Every year, some of the formerly missing are discovered, and the Department of National Defence is responsible for using historical and scientific methods to determine their identity.

Identification is the result of a collection of historical research and biological tests which eventually determine the most likely serviceman.

The first step in identification is to search records, such as military personnel records, burial registrar records, war diaries and maps, and regimental histories to create an historical profile of the unknown person. Purely historical identifications are rare, however, and DND usually seeks biological evidence to support other documents.

Biological anthropologists study the remains to determine the number of persons, their ages and heights, their dental health, their overall health and if possible, clues as to how they may have died. The resulting profile can further reduce the final list of candidates, and genetic testing of the remaining candidates can lead to an identification or reduce the candidate pool further.

Genetic testing of war remains requires that DNA be extracted from bone or teeth and then compared with genetic material donated by the descendents of the candidates.

Unfortunately, the use of DNA, while a method which has made identification more likely, can be limited by the availability of donors and the difficulty of extracting viable DNA from older remains. More recently, National Defence has used stable isotope technology to help differentiate the origins of candidates. By using the regional properties of certain elements to track the mobility of an individual, stable isotope technology can detect the locations in which an individual has been raised (to the age of approximately 21) and the locations in which an individual lived in the final ten to fifteen years of their lives. Such testing allows DND to exclude candidates based on where they were raised or where they lived prior to enlistment.

No doubt new technologies and increased access to historical documents will further enhance the precision and ability to identify Canada’s unknown soldiers, sailors and airmen and airwomen.

http://www.forces.gc...?cat=00&id=3725

[Waggoner]

There was a good article on the CTV news this morning. I was very pleased to learn that Pte. Lawless has been identified. The article went on to say that, while the Canadian government does not search for missing casualties, they go all out once they are found in order to identify them.  

All the best,

Gary

[Connor]

Great news!  Thanks so much for posting.  I missed that report completely.

[Ken S.]

I suppose I should have paid attention before I started my thread about this...

Anyway, the report included with the 49th's war diaries makes for interesting reading.

[seadog]

This is an excellent result and all those involved deserve our grateful thanks for their dedication and persistence.

Well Done Canada!

From the article:

The identification process is complex and uses technology that only became affordable in the last five years, said Laurel Clegg, casualty identification co-ordinator with the Department of National Defence. We’re learning how to take these modern technologies and apply them to these cases,” she said. “You don’t just use one tool; you try to use as many tools as you can. And eventually you just start eliminating until you get down to one person.”

Regards
Norman

[ianw]

A lot of money was spent to do this. I for one couldn't possibly say that this money was wasted - but I suppose some would.

If nothing else, thousands of Canadians will have heard the news of this today and gone off to work thinking "Good job done!"

In a few weeks time, he will rest in peace in an honoured named grave after a 94 year wait.

[seadog]

Ian I am sure that you will agree with me that those who give their life for their country deserve nothing less and I can not but admire the efforts that the Canadian authorities have expended on this case. I hope that the UK authorities will be as proactive in the case of the 15 British soldiers from Beaucamps-Ligny. By posting this may I assure members that it is not my intention to divert this excellent thread as there are other threads within this sub-group that deal with the topic of DNA and costs etc.

Regards
Norman

[ianw]

Quite agree, Norman.

Interesting to note that the Canadian Defence authorities seem to take the view that the use DNA techniques has "only become affordable in the last 5 years".  

I wonder if that view is held at the MOD?

[seadog]

Ian I have edited my last post in case it seemed that I was diverting this thread away from its subject. I am sure that members will find the other current threads that are dealing with the ramifications of the use of DNA and other investigative techniques.

Regards
Norman

[ianw]

Norman,

Yes, there is a multiplicity of threads on the good Canadian news , but no harm in that and I suspect the Mods may act to tidy it all up anyway.

Regards Ian

[seadog]

The image and description from the Vancouver Sun article as per post 02.

Undated handout photo of the painting Representative of their numbers, by artist Catherine Jones, depicting the final moments of Pte. Herbert Peterson of Alberta, who was identified and reburied amid much hoopla in 2007, and this then-unidentified comrade, now known to be Pte. Thomas Lawless, also from Alberta.

The scene was inspired by observations when the remains were discovered that one of the soldiers — now known to be Lawless — appeared to have been carrying the other when a massive artillery explosion left them dead and buried under blasted earth, lost to history for almost 90 years.

Attached Files

•  v sun.jpg   32.75K   2 downloads

[ianw]

"Greater love" etc

Marvellous that they will be able to rest together at La Chaudiere - presumably side by side?

[seadog]

That would only be right and proper Ian and I hope that is what will happen. Perhaps any member(s) who may attend the ceremony on the 15th March 2011 at La Chaudière Military Cemetery in Vimy, France, will be good enough to post photos of the occasion. I will also contact the CWGC Northern Europe who have in the past very kindly forwarded photos of such interments.

Regards
Norman

Edited to add:
I would expect to see full details of this ceremony reported on the CWGC website prior to the event.

[ianw]

Yes, they will lie together in IIB 1B and IIB 1A.

The CWGC has already updated his entry in anticipation of the March burial - as JB alludes to in the first post.

Pte Peterson will no doubt say "What kept you!".

[seadog]

That is very good news indeed, we can only guess at the circumstances of their passing and yet somehow by all the good work undertaken by the experts in Canada a Debt of Honour has been repaid in full and the covenant that we made when we asked these men to risk their lives for us even as we do today has been kept

Regards
Norman

[seadog]

Members may be interested in the following:-

After posting the details of the Canadian soldier onto my Flickr account, a Flickr member sent me this link which details the research undertaken to ascribe the name of Lt John Francis Maloney, a Canadian soldier, to a "Known unto God" headstone in White House Cemetery, St Jan-Ypres.

Lt Maloney

CWGC Details

I must admit that this was news to me and I cannot recall seeing this on the GWF.

Regards
Norman

[Piorun]

seadog, on 25 February 2011 - 01:37 PM, said:

That is very good news indeed, we can only guess at the circumstances of their passing and yet somehow by all the good work undertaken by the experts in Canada a Debt of Honour has been repaid in full and the covenant that we made when we asked these men to risk their lives for us even as we do today has been kept

Regards
Norman

The circumstances of their passing was noted by phoebus in #2, Norman. The Canadians have done well.

[ulsterlad2]

That's great news.

[Broznitsky]

seadog, on 25 February 2011 - 01:58 PM, said:

the research undertaken to ascribe the name of Lt John Francis Maloney, a Canadian soldier, to a "Known unto God" headstone in White House Cemetery, St Jan-Ypres.

Stalwart CEF Study Group member swellal was responsible for this great effort.  He will be visiting the stone soon.

[Broznitsky]

seadog, on 25 February 2011 - 12:20 PM, said:

one of the soldiers — now known to be Lawless — appeared to have been carrying the other when a massive artillery explosion left them dead and buried under blasted earth, lost to history for almost 90 years.

While I think most of us would like to believe this romanticized interpretation, it has also been pointed out that the bodies of the two fellows could have been thrown together into a shallow grave by Germans cleaning up after the night raid, and therefore not even been aware of each other that night long ago.

No matter, it is a great innings that both have been identified.

[Piorun]

With respect, B, it is hardly "romanticized". The possible interpretation of the double burial was assisted by war diary excerpts and other documentation. Unfortunately, a forensic scientist, Clegg, with DND, covering the scientific donkey, made a factual statement regarding the remains which may be accurate medically but is not necessarily relevant to the historical record forensically. For any case against, we can mount a reasonable case for.  Two lads, same raid, same night, same unit, documentary evidence (unknown at this point to this writer). Probablility of knowing one another - very high. Probability of dying together - high. Body position suggesting one assisting the other - medium. Let's accept the story as possible or probable fact, not a romantic myth and leave them alone. Old soldiers still need emotional memories and hopes that it wasn't all a bloody waste of life and time. Antony