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Inventions of the great war


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#101 Ianander

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Posted 07 March 2011 - 07:19 PM

View Postcenturion, on 07 March 2011 - 05:46 PM, said:

No that was a version of the MP44 an assault rifle - not what I meant

Attachment mp44.jpg
MP44 with curved barrel and periscope sight

What I was talking about was a version of the MG-42

We're getting away from WW1 otherwise I'd post a drawing of the Soviet sub machine gun with a curved barrel


Hi Centurion , That's a great drawing with great details, I impressed      :thumbsup:

cheer's

Ian

#102 Ianander

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Posted 08 March 2011 - 06:39 AM

Hi forum
               The Flamethrower, to me I would class this one, as a terror weapon !!. Used first by the German's , I don't know who invented  it ,or when??  .can anyone translate what is say's on bottom of the picture.
best regards
Ian

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#103 Gunner Bailey

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Posted 08 March 2011 - 07:23 AM

As a Mills collector the Mills Bomb is one of the great inventions of the Great War and set the pattern for almost every grenade since. Developed in late 1914 and early 1915 from the unreliable Belgian Roland grenade, William Mills and Frederick Gibbons made the first grenade that was reliable and safe to carry and use, which for once was more a danger to the target than the thrower. The Mills 36 grenade, introduced in late 1917 was such a good design that it remained in service with the British Army, unaltered, for a further 55 years and is still in use by some armies today. How many other WW1 inventions can equal that?

John

#104 Ianander

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Posted 08 March 2011 - 07:45 AM

Hello John
                       very good choice !!!! there John, a very long service record for the Mills grenade. I did throw a couple of grenades at Barry buddon  when I was in the TA in the 80'S of similar design ?.

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#105 centurion

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Posted 08 March 2011 - 09:43 AM

View PostIanander, on 08 March 2011 - 06:39 AM, said:

Hi forum
               The Flamethrower, to me I would class this one, as a terror weapon !!. Used first by the German's , I don't know who invented  it ,or when??  .
Ignoring the ancients and Greek Fire  the flamethrower was first mooted in the late 18th century  by a British inventor. However his hand pumped design was never built. The first to be built and used was made by the French in 1870 during the siege of Paris. It saw action during the subsequent 1871 Paris Communard revolt when the Communards used it to set fire to buildings.

#106 Tom W.

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Posted 08 March 2011 - 10:17 AM

View PostIanander, on 08 March 2011 - 06:39 AM, said:

Hi forum
               The Flamethrower, to me I would class this one, as a terror weapon !!. Used first by the German's , I don't know who invented  it ,or when??  .can anyone translate what is say's on bottom of the picture.
best regards
Ian
The writing at the bottom of the picture is just a generic description of the weapon, spraying burning oil over great distances, etc. That's the Austro-Hungarian M 15 22l Flammenwerfer.

The modern flamethrower, consisting of a tank of pressurized oil sprayed through a nozzle fitted with an igniter, was invented by German mechanical engineer Richard Fiedler in 1901 and adopted by the German army in 1908. In 1904 the chief of the Liepzig fire department, Bernhard Reddemann, read a newspaper description of Japanese engineers using hand pumps to spray kerosene into Russian trenches at Port Arthur. The Japanese ignited the kerosene with burning bundles of rags that they tossed over.

Reddemann spent the next ten years experimenting with converting fire-brigade hand and steam pumpers into flamethrowers. He met Richard Fiedler and the two seem to have exchanged ideas.

When the war broke out, the Germans had adopted two of fielder's designs: the kleine Flammenwerfer (Kleif) M.1912 and the Grosse Flammenwerfer (Grof) M.1912. One Kleif squad was assigned to each platoon of line pioneers, while the Grof was deemed a weapon of pioneer siege trains used for reducing fortresses.

The Germans used flamethrowers to raze Belgian and French towns in August of 1914, and they first used them in combat in the Argonne in October of 1914. The first mass flame attack was carried out on February 26, 1915, at Malancourt, when Flammenwerfer-Abteilung Reddemann used ten hand-pumped flamethrowers and two large Fiedler flamethrowers against the French.

Here are the Kleif and Grof M.1912.

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#107 Ianander

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Posted 08 March 2011 - 06:23 PM

View Postcenturion, on 08 March 2011 - 09:43 AM, said:

Ignoring the ancients and Greek Fire  the flamethrower was first mooted in the late 18th century  by a British inventor. However his hand pumped design was never built. The first to be built and used was made by the French in 1870 during the siege of Paris. It saw action during the subsequent 1871 Paris Communard revolt when the Communards used it to set fire to buildings.

Thank's centurion,
                  for good information you suppy with your post

Cheer's
Ian

#108 Ianander

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Posted 08 March 2011 - 06:27 PM

Hello Tom ,
                       Many thank's for your post it's full of good information, and  especially the diagrams they are really good
Cheer's
Ian

#109 Ianander

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Posted 10 March 2011 - 06:32 PM

View PostGunner Bailey, on 08 March 2011 - 07:23 AM, said:

As a Mills collector the Mills Bomb is one of the great inventions of the Great War and set the pattern for almost every grenade since. Developed in late 1914 and early 1915 from the unreliable Belgian Roland grenade, William Mills and Frederick Gibbons made the first grenade that was reliable and safe to carry and use, which for once was more a danger to the target than the thrower. The Mills 36 grenade, introduced in late 1917 was such a good design that it remained in service with the British Army, unaltered, for a further 55 years and is still in use by some armies today. How many other WW1 inventions can equal that?

John

Hi John , I found this diagram I thought I put on the post
Cheer's
Ian

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#110 centurion

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Posted 10 March 2011 - 06:48 PM

View PostGunner Bailey, on 08 March 2011 - 07:23 AM, said:

As a Mills collector the Mills Bomb is one of the great inventions of the Great War and set the pattern for almost every grenade since. Developed in late 1914 and early 1915 from the unreliable Belgian Roland grenade, William Mills and Frederick Gibbons made the first grenade that was reliable and safe to carry and use, which for once was more a danger to the target than the thrower. The Mills 36 grenade, introduced in late 1917 was such a good design that it remained in service with the British Army, unaltered, for a further 55 years and is still in use by some armies today. How many other WW1 inventions can equal that?

John
The only grenade to get a mention in a Damon Runyon story

#111 Ianander

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Posted 10 March 2011 - 08:03 PM

Hi centurion , Which Damon runyon Story??, I never read any of his short stories

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#112 centurion

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Posted 10 March 2011 - 11:47 PM

View PostIanander, on 10 March 2011 - 08:03 PM, said:

Hi centurion , Which Damon runyon Story??, I never read any of his short stories

Cheer's
Ian
Thats all he wrote.I've read them all - more than somewhat. Can't remember the title off hand but its the one where a bunch of New York hoods such as Harry the Horse  get invited over to Europe to do a job which involves knocking off the young prince of a country. Naturally they are somewhat concerned over this proposition although they feel that leaving without rubbing someone out causes some adverse comment so as they are departing they toss a pineapple through the bedroom window of the politician who asks them to come.

#113 ScottM

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Posted 11 March 2011 - 04:35 AM

A little less exotic, but certainly significant in an enduring fashion. The Armed Aircraft, e.g. the 'pursuit'/ fighter et al. What would the 20th century have been without it?

#114 Ianander

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Posted 11 March 2011 - 06:37 AM

View Postcenturion, on 10 March 2011 - 11:47 PM, said:

Thats all he wrote.I've read them all - more than somewhat. Can't remember the title off hand but its the one where a bunch of New York hoods such as Harry the Horse  get invited over to Europe to do a job which involves knocking off the young prince of a country. Naturally they are somewhat concerned over this proposition although they feel that leaving without rubbing someone out causes some adverse comment so as they are departing they toss a pineapple through the bedroom window of the politician who asks them to come.


Centurion   Thank's again for your useful information     :thumbsup:

and  Thank's to ScottM  for your input on armed Aircraft

cheer's
Ian

#115 TonyE

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Posted 11 March 2011 - 08:55 AM

View PostSiege Gunner, on 07 March 2011 - 05:25 PM, said:

Also available in Krummlauf form for shooting round corners.

Off topic, but the Krummerlauf was not for shooting round corners. Note that the barrel points downwards!

It was designed for tank crews to fire from the turret to clear enemy infantry who were close in to the tank hull trying to place anti-tank grenades (and were thus below the depression level of hull or turret MGs).

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TonyE

#116 Ianander

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Posted 11 March 2011 - 09:39 AM

View PostTonyE, on 11 March 2011 - 08:55 AM, said:

Off topic, but the Krummerlauf was not for shooting round corners. Note that the barrel points downwards!

It was designed for tank crews to fire from the turret to clear enemy infantry who were close in to the tank hull trying to place anti-tank grenades (and were thus below the depression level of hull or turret MGs).

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TonyE


Thank you TonyE ,      for the information on Krummerlauf  , my favourite subject is AFV's so that does come in usefull!!!

Cheer's TonyE

Ian

#117 NigelS

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Posted 11 March 2011 - 10:15 AM

Although the concept wasn't invented during the GW there were significant developments in gasmask technology.

NigelS

#118 TonyE

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Posted 11 March 2011 - 11:03 AM

View PostIanander, on 11 March 2011 - 09:39 AM, said:

Thank you TonyE ,      for the information on Krummerlauf  , my favourite subject is AFV's so that does come in usefull!!!

Cheer's TonyE

Ian

Although I used to own and shoot an MP44 before the 1988 Act banned them, the Pattern Room would never lend me their Krummerlauf attachment to let me try it out. Nost unreasonable of them I thought!

Incidentally, there was one produced for a question by Stephen Fry on QI in a recent show (I think lent by the IWM)

Regards
TonyE

#119 centurion

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Posted 11 March 2011 - 11:05 AM

View PostTonyE, on 11 March 2011 - 08:55 AM, said:

Off topic, but the Krummerlauf was not for shooting round corners. Note that the barrel points downwards!

It was designed for tank crews to fire from the turret to clear enemy infantry who were close in to the tank hull trying to place anti-tank grenades (and were thus below the depression level of hull or turret MGs).

But was subsequently found extremely useful in urban fighting for shooting round corners. The Soviets developed a less successful version of a sub machine gun for the same purpose

#120 TonyE

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Posted 11 March 2011 - 12:10 PM

As have the Israelis currently.

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#121 Ianander

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Posted 11 March 2011 - 02:13 PM

Cheers guy's for the input , Thanks Centurion, and thank's TonyE

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#122 centurion

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Posted 11 March 2011 - 03:05 PM

Another theme I've found intriguing are the three wheeled armoured armoured vehicles (sort of Reliant Regal meets Land Ironclad). Here are details of a few
The three wheel configuration was considered for a number of armoured vehicles. The three wheeled Ivel Tractor first introduced in 1902 at Biggleswade in the UK lays claim to be the first ever commercial internal combustion engined agricultural tractor. The original was still running in 2005. The Ivel proved to be one of the more successful early agricultural tractors and spawned a number of copies. In 1903 an armoured version for military use was produced in prototype form. It was completely armoured but unarmed and appears to have been intended to act as a form of battlefield casualty recovery vehicle. There is certainly a blurry photograph of the prototype with what seems to be a red cross marking on its side.
Quite how it was supposed to operate is unclear; there was certainly no room in the cab for a stretcher. It is possible that an armoured trailer would have been used. The whole of the rear of the cab could be swung out to form an additional shield on one side. This may have been intended to provide cover for stretcher bearers.  This would however have exposed the fuel tank, positioned beside the driver, to any fire from the rear (and probably the driver himself as well). The tractor was doubtless expected to be able to trundle up and down the battlefield with bullets pinging off it much like one of the armoured tractors used on modern golf driving ranges. It would have been a sitting duck for any artillery or infantry armed with demolition charges.. Openings for the crew (apart from the door) appear to have been limited to one forward facing slot for the driver (it was a one man vehicle), there was no way to see to the side or rearwards. Vision would have been extremely limited and any wounded would probably be in danger of being run over by the vehicle meant to rescue them. The Ivel Armoured Tractor remained an interesting prototype.

When seeking solutions to the need for armoured vehicles capable of operating in the broken and shell crater pocked ground of First World War battlefields some designers did not turn to the used of tracked vehicles (such as those that led to the tank) but instead looked at the concept of the ‘big wheel’. The idea was that by using wheels that were both very wide and of large diameter the ground pressure could be kept lower whilst at the same time allowing trenches and other holes in the ground to be bridged. The successful use in rear areas of very powerful tractors with relatively big wheels led some credence to the concept. One such vehicle was developed in 1916 at the request of the German Ministry of War, this was the eighteen ton Treffas-Wagen battlewagon which was trialled in February and March of 1917. It was a giant armoured tricycle with a pair of very broad 11 foot diameter wheels at the front and a wide roller at the rear. Steering was achieved by swivelling the roller and the turning circle must have been extremely wide. The use of such wide wheels would improve ground crossing and provide a means of flattening barbed wire. Armament was a single 20mm automatic cannon protruding from between the front wheels; this weapon would have had a very limited traverse. The crews’ view would have been very restricted as the wheels blocked any possible vision except directly forwards. The driver would be like a horse in blinkers. For the same reason it was impossible to mount any secondary armament to protect the sides and rear, this lack would have made the vehicle very vulnerable to infantry attack. Given the limited vision and the less than delicate steering manoeuvring such a monster on the battlefield would undoubtedly been difficult.  It could well have been as much a menace to the infantry it was supporting as to the enemy (perhaps initiating the concept of ‘friendly squash’.

Attached File  Trefass.jpg   41.84K   0 downloads


The German military were in any case still not particularly convinced of the value of tanks so that support and funds for their development were limited. The A7V tank was already under development and, despite its many shortcomings, offered a much better solution than the Treffas-Wagen. Consequently no further development of Germany’s big wheel solution was undertaken.

In 1918 an American attempt to develop a big wheel based solution resulted in the production of another armoured three wheeler. Produced by the Holt Tractor Corporation this vehicle could be described as being like a reversed Iver on steroids. Unlike the Iver it was armed. It appears to have been sometimes designated as a Holt tank even though it had no tracks (even though Holt track systems already formed the basis for contemporary tank designs in France, Germany and the USA). This may be the result of confusion with another Holt armoured vehicle  (the Gas Electric Tank) that definitely did have tracks. The single wheel on the Holt three wheeler was at the rear and being very wide could be described as a roller. This was used for steering (rather as with the Treffas-Wagen). A rudimentary unditching skid was fitted to the rear of the roller (although it is difficult to see of what use it would have been). The wide metal tractor style front wheels were eight feet in diameter. A 75mm mountain howitzer was mounted in the front of the vehicle (very much like in many German World War Two assault guns). Light machine guns could be mounted to fire to either side.

Attached File  steamtank.jpg   44.42K   0 downloads

What made this three wheeled armoured vehicle especially unusual was its mode of propulsion – it was powered by two separate steam engines each with its own kerosene (paraffin) heated boiler), one engine to each wheel. Why this arrangement was chosen is now unknown, it does not appear to have been used for differential steering (slowing down one wheel and speeding up the other to effect turns), but in any case it was clearly not a good choice as the vehicle is reported to have broken down during its first official trial run after only managing to roll a couple of hundred yards. From the experiences of British tanks in France it was probably already clear to the relevant American authorities that tracked solutions were already available and these were superior to big wheeled tricycles. The Holt ‘Steam Tank’ was not proceeded with.


The ultimate three wheeled fighting vehicle had already been built in Russia. This was nothing less than a truly gigantic armoured tricycle and represented the logical (or perhaps illogical) conclusion of the Big Wheel argument. The enormous wheels were intended to be able to bridge the widest trenches. Even more extreme versions of this design had been mooted. These included the introduction of massive stabilising gyros and a revised structure with just one enormous front wheel, effectively producing a titanic penny farthing bicycle (although no thought appears to have been given as to how this would be steered). Perhaps fortunately, there was no funding available to pursue such Wellsian schemes. Only the basic tricycle design, credited to a M.Lebdenko, was proceeded with. A similar big wheel design was rejected by the British Landship Committee after some very crude wooden mock ups of the wheels had been constructed. It is not clear if there was any connection between the two designs or merely the coincidence of two identical bad ideas occurring at the same time. Given the timing it is possible that the Russian design  had been offered to Britain. Fortunately the Landship Committee rejected the idea of the big wheel in favour of tacked solutions leading to the first combat tank.

#123 Ianander

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Posted 11 March 2011 - 06:15 PM

Hi Centurion
                            I know Biggleswade very well as my Brother-in- law used to work there before moving to Spain. Those Big wheels would have taken a lot of power to turn them!! , I take it also, It had a big engine and the pictures are excellent!!!.
thank's again  for information & pictures

Cheer's
Ian

#124 MikeS0000

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Posted 22 March 2011 - 11:08 PM

As per discussion in the preceding pages, here is a French Periscope Rifle (periscope - Lebel) combination.

Best regards!
- Mike

Attached File  Periscope_Rifle_small.jpg   70.07K   3 downloads

#125 centurion

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Posted 22 March 2011 - 11:33 PM

View PostMikeS0000, on 22 March 2011 - 11:08 PM, said:

As per discussion in the preceding pages, here is a French Periscope Rifle (periscope - Lebel) combination.

Best regards!
- Mike

Attachment Periscope_Rifle_small.jpg
The firer would have to reach up to work the bolt which seems a good way to get some fingers shot off. Here is an alternative French design that avoids this
Attached File  imag0301.jpeg   31.38K   3 downloads