Hi
How many tanks were involded during hte battles of Gaza? I only find mention of it during the second one. How many were lost?
Thanks
Chris
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british tanks during 2nd & 3rd Gaza
Started by
asiate
, Jun 29 2004 07:13 AM
53 replies to this topic
#5 Deleted_stevenbec_*
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Posted 29 June 2004 - 11:22 PM
Mate,
As stated I do have the War Diary for the Tank unit in this battle and can give more info if needed.
Also anything you may want but sorry I don't have photos you are after or in a position to post them on net.
S.B
As stated I do have the War Diary for the Tank unit in this battle and can give more info if needed.
Also anything you may want but sorry I don't have photos you are after or in a position to post them on net.
S.B
#6
asiate
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Posted 30 June 2004 - 10:46 PM
Here is a picture from a tank destroyed during the second battle of Gaza. It seems this tank, hit by the turkish artillery was left by his crew. Before they left they put fire into. Later this tank was used by turkish snipers and known as tank redout.
Are these informations correct?
Regards
Chris
Are these informations correct?
Regards
Chris
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#8 Deleted_stevenbec_*
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Posted 01 July 2004 - 12:30 AM
Mate,
That Tank is "Sir Archibald".
It was attached to the 163rd Bde 54th Division for the attack on that redoubt.
The main Bn's are as shown on the last discussion were the 1/5th Norfolk Regt and the 1st Anzac Bn Camel Corps.
The 1st Anzac Bn suffered over 234 men during the day of battle the 1/5th Norfolk suffered over 600 men.
S.B
That Tank is "Sir Archibald".
It was attached to the 163rd Bde 54th Division for the attack on that redoubt.
The main Bn's are as shown on the last discussion were the 1/5th Norfolk Regt and the 1st Anzac Bn Camel Corps.
The 1st Anzac Bn suffered over 234 men during the day of battle the 1/5th Norfolk suffered over 600 men.
S.B
#9
domsim
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Posted 01 July 2004 - 09:00 AM
There are about 4 or 5 pictures of knocked out British Tanks at Gaza on the Australaian War Memorial site:
Aussie war memorial
Hit collections search and type in Gaza and use 1st world war drop menu-you get about 300 hits but it is worth trawling through just to see all the fascinating photos and artefacts.
Aussie war memorial
Hit collections search and type in Gaza and use 1st world war drop menu-you get about 300 hits but it is worth trawling through just to see all the fascinating photos and artefacts.
#10
asiate
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Posted 01 July 2004 - 09:17 PM
Thank you friends for all these informations. I used to go to the AWM website were i found some pictures from the same taken from the other site. To check my informations I have some questions:
- What happens to the crew of "Sir Archibald"? (Lt Living, L/Cpl V. Hatherall,
Pte P. James, Pte J. Oldknow?)
- When & where was it exactly destroyed? (17th April 1917 ?)
- Where was tank redoubt, I can't succeed to find it on a map.
- How many tanks were involved during this battle and how many were lost? (7 involved and four destroyed?)
- which kind was this tank? MKI female?
Kindest regards
Chris
- What happens to the crew of "Sir Archibald"? (Lt Living, L/Cpl V. Hatherall,
Pte P. James, Pte J. Oldknow?)
- When & where was it exactly destroyed? (17th April 1917 ?)
- Where was tank redoubt, I can't succeed to find it on a map.
- How many tanks were involved during this battle and how many were lost? (7 involved and four destroyed?)
- which kind was this tank? MKI female?
Kindest regards
Chris
#11 Deleted_stevenbec_*
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Posted 02 July 2004 - 01:48 AM
Mate,
Sorry my mistake.
The tank shown in the photo in HMLS Nutty not Sir Archibald.
There were only eight tanks of which Sir Archibald was destroyed on the 17th April.
Two tanks were given to each British Divison for the attack (53rd and 54th Div) with four given to the 52nd Div.
The 54th Div had HMLS Nutty and Sir Archibald.
These were attach during the movement up to Sheikh Abbas Ridge when it was KO by artillery fire.
The 54th Div dug in on SH-Abbas ridge and the Tank Redoubt was on the Khirbet Sihan line along the Gaza Beersheba road.
The Turkish Regt defending this line was the 165th so if you can find this regt you will see in the right area for the attack from Sh- Abbas ridge on the 19th April. To the left of the Tank redoubt was the Jack and Jill redoubts just in front of the village of Khirbet Sihan and the Waddi of that name. further to the Turkish left was the Atawine redoubt.
What happen to the tanks is shown on the other questions and list I gave and as far as I can find out all tanks were Mk 1 Female tanks.
I am unsure of the exact place the tank was KO on the 17th April but was on the way up to the Sh Abbas ridge.
Hope that helps
S.B
Sorry my mistake.
The tank shown in the photo in HMLS Nutty not Sir Archibald.
There were only eight tanks of which Sir Archibald was destroyed on the 17th April.
Two tanks were given to each British Divison for the attack (53rd and 54th Div) with four given to the 52nd Div.
The 54th Div had HMLS Nutty and Sir Archibald.
These were attach during the movement up to Sheikh Abbas Ridge when it was KO by artillery fire.
The 54th Div dug in on SH-Abbas ridge and the Tank Redoubt was on the Khirbet Sihan line along the Gaza Beersheba road.
The Turkish Regt defending this line was the 165th so if you can find this regt you will see in the right area for the attack from Sh- Abbas ridge on the 19th April. To the left of the Tank redoubt was the Jack and Jill redoubts just in front of the village of Khirbet Sihan and the Waddi of that name. further to the Turkish left was the Atawine redoubt.
What happen to the tanks is shown on the other questions and list I gave and as far as I can find out all tanks were Mk 1 Female tanks.
I am unsure of the exact place the tank was KO on the 17th April but was on the way up to the Sh Abbas ridge.
Hope that helps
S.B
#12 Deleted_stevenbec_*
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Posted 02 July 2004 - 02:01 AM
Mate,
Just to add.
The War diary shows Sir Archibald with Nutty procedded into action at 0430 17th April 1917 from Pt 300 on Dumbell Hill and proceded around Sh Abbas rigde at Pt Sq W 32 d were the tank was hit by artillery fire on the left track putting it out of action. This left only Nutty. Of the crew of Sir Archibald, Lt Living was WIA but both Pte Jones and Ferguson were WIA by burns and later died. Pte Oldknow was also WIA by burns to hands and helped with L/Cpl Hatherall and James save the wounded crew. These are the only names mentioned in the War Diary in regards to that tank.
52nd Div had HMLS Otazel, Kia-ora, Pincher and War Baby.
53rd Div had Tiger and Ole-Luk-Oie.
S.B
Just to add.
The War diary shows Sir Archibald with Nutty procedded into action at 0430 17th April 1917 from Pt 300 on Dumbell Hill and proceded around Sh Abbas rigde at Pt Sq W 32 d were the tank was hit by artillery fire on the left track putting it out of action. This left only Nutty. Of the crew of Sir Archibald, Lt Living was WIA but both Pte Jones and Ferguson were WIA by burns and later died. Pte Oldknow was also WIA by burns to hands and helped with L/Cpl Hatherall and James save the wounded crew. These are the only names mentioned in the War Diary in regards to that tank.
52nd Div had HMLS Otazel, Kia-ora, Pincher and War Baby.
53rd Div had Tiger and Ole-Luk-Oie.
S.B
#13
Robert Dunlop
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Posted 02 July 2004 - 06:11 PM
QUOTE (stevenbec @ Fri, 2 Jul 2004 02:48:06 +0000)
as far as I can find out all tanks were Mk 1 Female tanks.
Not all of the tanks in Palestine were Mk Is or females. HMLS Archibald was a male for example. A small number of Mk IV tanks came into the Palestine theatre as well.
Robert
#14
Pete Wood
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Posted 02 July 2004 - 06:26 PM
QUOTE (Robert Dunlop @ Fri, 2 Jul 2004 19:11:15 +0000)
QUOTE (stevenbec @ Fri, 2 Jul 2004 02:48:06 +0000)
as far as I can find out all tanks were Mk 1 Female tanks.
Not all of the tanks in Palestine were Mk Is or females. HMLS Archibald was a male for example. A small number of Mk IV tanks came into the Palestine theatre as well.
Robert
Agree with Robert. Some MkIIs were sent with the initial detachment.
I believe, however, the MkIVs were used at 3rd Gaza (or maybe even later...??).
#15
Robert Dunlop
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Posted 02 July 2004 - 06:42 PM
Yes, Third Gaza for the Mk IVs. The only source I checked (Fletcher's recent Osprey on the Mk Is) mentions 'training tanks' were sent to Gaza, which were often Mk IIs. He does not confirm this in the section on Mk IIs. However, Fletcher's book 'The British tanks 1915-1919' says '[p]resumably Mark II tanks were ruled out on account of being unarmoured'. All the pics I have show the rounded ends to the forward track adjusters, typical of the Mk Is but I do not have photos of all tanks that were in Palestine.
Tank Redoubt was so named because the tank HMLS Nutty managed to get the Norfolk Regiment into the redoubt before being knocked out close by.
Robert
Tank Redoubt was so named because the tank HMLS Nutty managed to get the Norfolk Regiment into the redoubt before being knocked out close by.
Robert
#16 Deleted_stevenbec_*
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Posted 02 July 2004 - 10:57 PM
Robert,
Can you confirm those male tanks at 2nd Gaza.
I have seen no photos of any males there at that time. Even those KO are shown as Female.
But I would surposed there to be male tanks, its just I have never found any conclisive sourse for sure.
My inquirys to the RAC at Bovington led to no positive proof of any male tanks.
S.B
Can you confirm those male tanks at 2nd Gaza.
I have seen no photos of any males there at that time. Even those KO are shown as Female.
But I would surposed there to be male tanks, its just I have never found any conclisive sourse for sure.
My inquirys to the RAC at Bovington led to no positive proof of any male tanks.
S.B
#17
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Posted 03 July 2004 - 07:37 AM
I have evidence for HMLS Sir Archibald and HMLS Pincher being male tanks. I also have a photograph of a male tank undergoing maintenance but it is not possible to determine the name of the tank.
Robert
Robert
#18
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Posted 20 December 2004 - 08:46 AM
Chris,
I have revived this old thread of yours to add the picture below
Looking at the shape of the hole in the tank’s front right-hand side
[just to the left of the soldier in your picture]
Then I would say that this seems to be the same tank,
but that the picture below was taken at an earlier time before more damage was done.
The picture comes from the collection of Fritz Groll who was the head of the photography and survey unit with the German Squadron 300 in Palestine. It belongs to Benjamin Z. Kedar and was reproduced by him in his book ‘The Changing Land between the Jordan & the Sea’
Regards
Michael D.R.
I have revived this old thread of yours to add the picture below
Looking at the shape of the hole in the tank’s front right-hand side
[just to the left of the soldier in your picture]
Then I would say that this seems to be the same tank,
but that the picture below was taken at an earlier time before more damage was done.
The picture comes from the collection of Fritz Groll who was the head of the photography and survey unit with the German Squadron 300 in Palestine. It belongs to Benjamin Z. Kedar and was reproduced by him in his book ‘The Changing Land between the Jordan & the Sea’
Regards
Michael D.R.
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#20 Deleted_MOBBSY_*
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Posted 26 April 2005 - 08:32 PM
QUOTE (Robert Dunlop @ Jul 2 2004, 06:42 PM)
Yes, Third Gaza for the Mk IVs. The only source I checked (Fletcher's recent Osprey on the Mk Is) mentions 'training tanks' were sent to Gaza, which were often Mk IIs. He does not confirm this in the section on Mk IIs. However, Fletcher's book 'The British tanks 1915-1919' :D :( <_< :) says '[p]resumably Mark II tanks were ruled out on account of being unarmoured'. All the pics I have show the rounded ends to the forward track adjusters, typical of the Mk Is but I do not have photos of all tanks that were in Palestine.
Tank Redoubt was so named because the tank HMLS Nutty managed to get the Norfolk Regiment into the redoubt before being knocked out close by.
Robert
Tank Redoubt was so named because the tank HMLS Nutty managed to get the Norfolk Regiment into the redoubt before being knocked out close by.
Robert
can you please help I am new to this site so please bear with me . My grandfather was in the 1/5th Norfolks at gaza he was taken prisoner after the second battle of gaza for 2 years in which he was wounded do you know were he was taken? Thanks Mobbsy
#21
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Posted 16 May 2005 - 11:01 PM
Mate,
He was possibly taken during the assult on the main redoult (later called Tank Redoult) by the 1/5 Norforks and 1st Anzac Bn of the Camel Corps 19th April 1917.
Companies of these two Bn's and 8th Hampshire broke into the redoult about 0900 in the morning. They fought there untill around 1400 when the redoult was regained by the Turks.
There were some 22 soldiers of the Camel Corps (I have all names) captured either in the redoult or wounded out side. This was because no mans land was controled by the turks after the battle who collected many of the wounded.
I know the names of only two British officers captured that day and have only a report that mentions large numbers of British prisoners, but how many I have not been able to find out.
I am been after the names of prisoners for years but no luck.
S.B
He was possibly taken during the assult on the main redoult (later called Tank Redoult) by the 1/5 Norforks and 1st Anzac Bn of the Camel Corps 19th April 1917.
Companies of these two Bn's and 8th Hampshire broke into the redoult about 0900 in the morning. They fought there untill around 1400 when the redoult was regained by the Turks.
There were some 22 soldiers of the Camel Corps (I have all names) captured either in the redoult or wounded out side. This was because no mans land was controled by the turks after the battle who collected many of the wounded.
I know the names of only two British officers captured that day and have only a report that mentions large numbers of British prisoners, but how many I have not been able to find out.
I am been after the names of prisoners for years but no luck.
S.B
#22
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Posted 30 December 2005 - 07:09 AM
QUOTE (MOBBSY @ Apr 26 2005, 08:32 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
can you please help I am new to this site so please bear with me . My grandfather was in the 1/5th Norfolks at gaza he was taken prisoner after the second battle of gaza for 2 years in which he was wounded do you know were he was taken? Thanks Mobbsy
I will look in my Dad's album. He was a memeber of crew in Otazel and has some 200 photos of his time in Palestine- but I am not too good with commputers !!- prisoners from tanks are mentioned in his narratives accompanying pictures- hopefully his album might clarify a few aspects. Mathew.
#23
delta
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Posted 14 July 2006 - 02:23 PM
Matthew
I have only just picked up this thread; did you provide any more info and if, so were is it?
Thanx
Stephen
I have only just picked up this thread; did you provide any more info and if, so were is it?
Thanx
Stephen
#24
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Posted 14 July 2006 - 10:41 PM
Mate,
My research into this Battle has found the crew of the Tank "Nutty" were taken prisoner during the fighting in Tank Redoubt or after.
Their Commander 2/Lt FC Carr died of his wounds in Captivity on the 24th April 1917 but as for what happened to the crew or their names I have no record.
Cheers
S.B
My research into this Battle has found the crew of the Tank "Nutty" were taken prisoner during the fighting in Tank Redoubt or after.
Their Commander 2/Lt FC Carr died of his wounds in Captivity on the 24th April 1917 but as for what happened to the crew or their names I have no record.
Cheers
S.B
#25
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Posted 15 July 2006 - 07:29 AM
Steve
Many thanks; that is another small piece for the jigsaw
I have e-mailed Mathew to see if I can get more on Otazel's crew - will publish here if he gets back to me
Stephen
Many thanks; that is another small piece for the jigsaw
I have e-mailed Mathew to see if I can get more on Otazel's crew - will publish here if he gets back to me
Stephen
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