13 replies to this topic

[efiste2]

New to the forum so please excuse my nieve question......We are researching a few names on our local war memorial in Frodsham.Cheshire for my sons school project, and the first question that has crossed our minds is ....What determined where the dead were buried in terms of cemetries etc, ie were they buried in the nearest cemetry to the place they fell.....

[David Faulder]

Welcome to the Forum

Your question has lots of answers!

• If they died in the UK, they would probably be buried near their home at a place chosen by their family
• If they died away from the UK on the chain of evacuation they would be buried in a cemetery near the Casualty Clearing Station or Hospital where they fell
• If they died whilst a POW they would normally be buried close to the camp where they died
• If they died at the Front:
  • They might have been left on the battle field and
    • covered by earth thrown over them by shell fire,
    • swiftly buried close to where they fell in an isolated grave by their colleagues
    • buried (usually in a common grave - often a trench) by the Germans if they captured the land
  • They might have been recovered shortly after the event and then buried in a cemetery close to the lines (this would also apply to those dying in or closely behind the front - this might apply to non-infantry casualties).

However, four factors could disturb this:

• The grave could be subsequently destroyed by shelling and lost
• After the end of hostilities, most in isolated graves and many in smaller cemeteries, where exhumed and concentrated into bigger cemeteries
• Lost bodies may have been found when the battlefields were searched immediately after the war, in which case they would have gone into the nearest "open" cemetery which might not be that far away
• Finds after the initial years of search would go into the nearest "open" cemetery - which until recently could be a very significant distance away.  Currently found bodies tend to be buried in the nearest cemetery which has space.

Naval and Air Force casualties could be different.

The CWGC web-site has a lot of information if you dig into it (try the free leaflets and learning one areas)

HTH
David

[John Hartley]

As you say, closest place to where they were killed. You wouldn waste resources moving dead bodies further than you had to.

Others, of course, will have died of wounds somewhere down the casualty chain but you can normally get a clue about this from the cemetery write-up on the CWGC website.
In other cases, the bodies may not have been discovered until some years after the war - they'll be buried in whichever cemetery was still open for burials.

I know where the Frodsham memorial is - I assume there's great views over towards the sea?

[centurion]

David's answer appears pretty comprehensive but I suspect Western Front orientated. Would exactly the same criteria apply say to deaths in East Africa for example where in a much more disparate and scattered theatre of war men might die some way distant from a designated cemetery (say from sickness). Were there many scattered and isolated graves or was some attempt made at some form of concentration?

[Ice tiger]

David Faulder, on 07 March 2011 - 10:53 PM, said:

If they died in the UK, they would probably be buried near their home at a place chosen by their family.....

David

Not strictly true.

The default position was for those who died in the UK to be buried in the town they died.

Relatives were however given the option of having them buried in the cemetery of their home town but they had to pay for the body to be transported from the place of death to the home town.

The family of one of my Addlestone me could not afford this and a collection was made amongst local tradesmen to pay for his body to be brought home for burial.

(Source: Surrey Herald Newspaper)

Andy

[efiste2]

John Hartley, on 07 March 2011 - 10:59 PM, said:

As you say, closest place to where they were killed. You wouldn waste resources moving dead bodies further than you had to.

Others, of course, will have died of wounds somewhere down the casualty chain but you can normally get a clue about this from the cemetery write-up on the CWGC website.
In other cases, the bodies may not have been discovered until some years after the war - they'll be buried in whichever cemetery was still open for burials.

I know where the Frodsham memorial is - I assume there's great views over towards the sea?

Thanks for the detailed answers chaps......and yes the Frodsham memorial stands proudly on top of Frodsham Hill, with superb views out onto the mersey estuary,the pennines and North Wales.....

[jhill]

As an example of the situation in France and Flanders I post this snippet from the Administrative Order issued by the 3rd Canadian Division on their move to the Ypres Salient in October 1917.  Burials were under Divisional arrangements and this was typical.  The full order can be consulted here .

When active operations were in progress, these neat procedures were, of course, not possible.  In those situations standard orders stipulated the method of setting up of new cemeteries in forward areas.

Attached Files

•  burial2div.jpg   39.38K   0 downloads

[Chris_Baker]

efiste2, you might find this article helpful: http://www.1914-1918.net/died.htm

[KevinBattle]

From the CWGC Debt of Honour database, these have Frodsham connections...

AINSWORTH HM 63493 16TH BN 25/07/1918 CHESHIRE REGIMENT
ATHERTON WH 58261 16TH BN 22/10/1917 CHESHIRE REGIMENT
BOOTH P G/42640 17TH BN 07/01/1918 MIDDLESEX REGIMENT
BRADY TA 22328 8TH BN 01/10/1918 KING'S OWN (ROYAL LANCASTER REGIMENT)
BROWN D 4094 5TH BN ATTD 11TH BN 06/09/1916 CHESHIRE REGIMENT
BURKHILL S 10266 1ST BN 24/08/1914 CHESHIRE REGIMENT
BURKHILL P 23011 10TH BN 18/08/1917 THE QUEEN'S (ROYAL WEST SURREY REGIMENT)
CARTER P - 4TH BN 09/04/1918 SOUTH LANCASHIRE REGIMENT
COLEMAN AT G/54139 20TH BN 09/04/1918 -12/04/1918 MIDDLESEX REGIMENT
CONNOLLY PH 55266 13TH BN 22/04/1918 ROYAL WELSH FUSILIERS
COOK AC - 16TH BN ATTD 4TH BN 16/08/1916 THE KING'S (LIVERPOOL REGIMENT)
COOPER TF 19066 3RD BN 31/07/1917 GRENADIER GUARDS
DAVIES AS 77064 1ST/4TH BN 27/10/1918 CHESHIRE REGIMENT
DIMELOW J 63677 13TH BN 27/08/1918 WELSH REGIMENT
EGERTON S 109027 1ST BN 24/04/1918 SHERWOOD FORESTERS (NOTTS & DERBY REG’T)
EVANS G 2118 1ST/6TH BN 16/06/1915 MANCHESTER REGIMENT
FLETCHER S 54757 56TH COY 20/09/1917 MACHINE GUN CORPS (INFANTRY)
FORSTER JT 55358 B COY 2ND BN 09/11/1917 WELSH REGIMENT
FRODSHAM W 1636 64TH FIELD AMB 17/09/1916 ROYAL ARMY MEDICAL CORPS
FRODSHAM C 22380 19TH BN 22/03/1918 THE KING'S (LIVERPOOL REGIMENT)
FRODSHAM W 430218 421ST FIELD COY 16/06/1917 ROYAL ENGINEERS
GERRARD W 2330 5TH BN 25/05/1915 SOUTH LANCASHIRE REGIMENT
GIBSON L - SS HIGHBURY LONDON 31/05/1917 MERCANTILE MARINE
HELSBY FJ 11031 11TH BN 29/07/1916 CHESHIRE REGIMENT
HOWARD A 260167 2ND/6TH BN 04/12/1917 ROYAL WARWICKSHIRE REGIMENT
HUGHES J 25210 1ST BN 09/04/1916 CHESHIRE REGIMENT
HULSE J 10924 A COY 9TH BN 04/07/1916 CHESHIRE REGIMENT
HUNT T 46773 11TH BN 06/10/1917 LEICESTERSHIRE REGIMENT
JEFFS W 14980 10TH BN 19/05/1916 CHESHIRE REGIMENT
JONES A 92466 160TH SIEGE BTY 29/04/1918 ROYAL GARRISON ARTILLERY
JONES W 36287 10TH BN 18/09/1918 CHESHIRE REGIMENT
KINSEY W 2050 5TH BN 02/07/1916 CHESHIRE REGIMENT
KNIGHT W 15879 10TH BN 24/05/1916 CHESHIRE REGIMENT
KNIGHT T 203259 3RD/5TH BN 09/10/1917 LANCASHIRE FUSILIERS
LANGWINE O 50605 2ND/4TH BN 09/06/1918 SOUTH LANCASHIRE REGIMENT
LEE W 50559 1ST BN 14/05/1917 CHESHIRE REGIMENT
LEWIS JB 21554 19TH BN 27/06/1916 THE KING'S (LIVERPOOL REGIMENT)
LITTLER JE 235824 2ND BN 05/09/1918 EAST LANCASHIRE REGIMENT
NICHOLLS G 101551 17TH SQDN 16/10/1918 MACHINE GUN CORPS (CAVALRY)
OAKES J 45629 40TH BTY 26TH BDE 11/08/1916 ROYAL FIELD ARTILLERY
ROBERTS S 12399 12TH BN 03/03/1916 THE KING'S (LIVERPOOL REGIMENT)
ROGERS JD 15878 1ST BN 28/09/1918 CHESHIRE REGIMENT
ROWLAND H 29740 7TH BN 19/09/1918 THE QUEEN'S (ROYAL WEST SURREY REGIMENT)
RUTTER A 18988 21ST BN 14/07/1916 MANCHESTER REGIMENT
RYDER HJ 10740 D COY 13TH BN 07/06/1917 CHESHIRE REGIMENT
THOMAS SH 15938 17TH BN 30/07/1916 THE KING'S (LIVERPOOL REGIMENT)
TITTLE E 59224 15TH BN 28/03/1918 CHESHIRE REGIMENT
WHITBY H W/223 13TH BN 13/05/1916 CHESHIRE REGIMENT
WILLIS F 18809 10TH BN 07/06/1917 CHESHIRE REGIMENT
WORRALL E 65531 206TH BN 26/06/1917 MACHINE GUN CORPS (INFANTRY)
WORRALL F 49588 13TH BN 08/10/1916 CHESHIRE REGIMENT
WORRALL A 12216 9TH BN 12/10/1916 CHESHIRE REGIMENT
WYNNE R 63486 1ST/6TH BN 23/08/1918 MANCHESTER REGIMENT

CUMSTIE A 1067 23RD BN 27/04/1916 AUSTRALIAN INFANTRY, A.I.F.

Be interesting to compare with the Monument....

[Llew]

To give you an example from the information provided by Kevin, and with information that I have to hand,

46773 Pte. Thomas Hunt was with the 11th (Pioneer) Battalion Leicestershire Regiment and he was killed in action on the 6th October 1917.

The 11th Battalion diary for this date records,

DICKESBUSCH

Work was continued as before.
1 man of B company was killed by shell fire & 5 men of B company were wounded.
3 men were admitted to Hospital with sickness.

We can just about be certain that the man killed by shell fire was Thomas, if you click on the CWGC link below and then click the cemetery link to The Huts Cemetery this will give you information on the location and historical facts as suggested by John in the earlier post.

http://www.cwgc.org/...casualty=156372


Regards. Llew.

[John Hartley]

parkgates, on 27 June 2012 - 03:10 PM, said:

All of these postings were made, one may suppose, on the false assumption that I was not a GWF member and that I would not see them.

I hadnt seen any previous postings that might have been offensive so thanks for stirring the pot on the subject.

I can only speak for myself in saying that I have, from time to time, made offensive remarks on this board towards people who I knew were GWF members and I hoped they would see them.

[RoyEvans]

I have removed a number of posts which have less to do with this thread than with another unrelated matter. The posters of the removed threads have both previously been contacted by the mods and it was hoped that that issue had been put to rest.

Please desist from continuing your personal argument on this public forum.

Roy

[John Hartley]

I struggle to recall what happened last week. And there's no chance of me remembering a contribution to a thread on an internet discussion board three years ago - but, clearly, you do so it must have been a significant contribution.

Although it appears to be off-topic for this thread, I am happy to share my current thinking on acknowledgements of my research. Basically, it's that I don't care whether it is or is not acknowledged. Folk use stuff from my memorial website all the time without acknowledgement. Occasionally, they ask first if they can use it. I also respond saying that it's fine to use whatever they need and I also tell them that it'd be nice if they noted the source but, if it doesnt suit their purposes, then I am equally content for them not to quote source.

Hope this helps.

[Alan Curragh]

Another post has now been removed - which has the unfortunate result that John's reply above doesn't make a lot of sense.  I can only reiterate Roy's point above - please take personal arguments outside the forum

Alan