31 replies to this topic

[jonathan b]

I have recently purchased a button hole badge of the Loyal Dublin Volunteers, and i am keen to find out some information about this unit.
Unusually the internet is unable to help, other than to show a similar badge someone bought on ebay in January.
My badge is pictured below, it is a bronze colour and is approx 30mm in diameter.
I would appreciate any information, which anyone can provide on this little known unit, which i think must be from the Great War period.

Attached Files

•  lot75.jpg   38.96K   4 downloads

[jonathan b]

This badge is numbered 395 on the back, and has a makers name which is unreadable.
I got this badge from a person in Dubln, but they don't know anything about it or the history of the unit.

[archangel9]

'Loyal Dublin Volunteers' sounds more like a pre-war anti Home Rule organisation than a WW1 unit.

John

[HERITAGE PLUS]

I think that this may have been a unit of the Irish Volunteer Training Corps (VTC)and one of the units which disappeared with the rundown of  Irish units within the formation of the Volunteer Force(from the old VTC) in the summer of 1916.

Dave

[BLee]

There are some references to The Loyal Dublin Volunteers in the Irish Times, I remember reading reports on them some years ago when I was researching WW1. They were a type of Dad's Army or Volunteer Training Corps set up to defend Dublin against a German invasion and to encourage men to enlist in the Army. From what I can remember it appeared to be made up of mainly ex-British Army officers. It was not a big group as a turn out of nearly 50 volunteers was referred to as splendid. I have also seen their badge listed in some Badge Magazines and they were listed under VTC (Volunteer Training Corps). They do not appear to have lasted very long, I suppose with the Irish National Volunteers and the GR there was not much call for another similar group.  

[Peter Mc]

Dave and John have hit the mark. I don't know when the LDV were formed but in July 1914 there is a reference to them existing as an armed unit of loyal Orangemen. This was the period of the Home Rule Crisis in Ireland. About 2000 men were in the LDV at the outbreak of war of which some 600 enlisted.
A photo exists of a number of them at Finner Camp, Bundoran in 1914 where they were attached to the Iniskilling Fusiliers, in training for service abroad.
After August 1915 they joined the Irish Association of Volunteer Training Corps. Whether they disappeared as a unit after this I don't know.

[jonathan b]

i would like to thank everyone for their replies. They generally appear to be a forgotten grouping, but there were alot of other happenings taking place at that period of time, which may have overshadowed them.
I am very interested to hear of a photo of them being taken at Finner Camp, and would be keen to see a copy if one still exists.
It is good to hear other ideas and facts from other forum members, especially on topics on which little information seems to exist.

[quincey]

Im currently doing a piece of writing on the Loyal Dublin Volunteers. ANyone come across any mroe information or regalia?

[jonathan b]

Recently i have read a new book called  -  'A City in Wartime'   { Dublin 1914 - 1918 } by author Padraig Yeates, which i had borrowed from my local library, it mentions the LDV briefly on page 17.

" 400 men joined a surrepititous Dublin Volunteer Corps, also known as the Loyal Dublin Volunteers, who drilled weekly in the Fowler Memorial Hall, in Rutland Square { now Parnell Square }. Their commander was a retired Colonel, Henry McMaster, who was also grandmaster of the Orange Order in the city, which comprised 11 Orange Lodges, including one in Trinity College. { *1  }  The corps had about 100 rifles, and planned to defend the middleclass townships, against rampaging Catholic mobs, if Home Rule was introduced. Some members had registered as reservists with the Ulster Volunteer Force, which promised to provide guns and ammunition for Dublin, if hostilities broke out. { *2  }                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       Source  * 1.   McDowell, Crisis & Decline, page 33.
Source * 2. Up to eighty members of the corps, joined the Dublin  'Pals Battalion' shortly after war broke out.   Dublin Evening Mail, 14th September 1914.
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Recently i had been studying old copies of the Tyrone Constuition newspaper for 1916, in Omagh Library, looking for information on the 9th service battalion, Royal Inniskilling Fusiliers {  the Tyrone Volunteers } i came across an article which said that one of the platoons, was made up completely of members of the Loyal Dublin Volunteers. I copied the page but i can't find it at present.
Other sources of information would obviously be the Dublin newspapers, of the period, which the author of the above mentioned book, has used.

[corisande]

This is them



You will get more than you need from online Irish Newspapers

[Ken Devitt]

There was a discussion on the forum some time back about the LDV.

I vaguely recall some mention of Glasnevin.

Ken

[Desmond7]

Just an observation .. the five pointed star on the badge is a symbol very closely associated with Orangeism.

[W.J.Caughey]

Hi chaps, just found this arcticle in my files, tried to upload to large, if anyone requires full notice you can PM me with
email address and i can send.

W.J.Caughey

Attached Files

•  Loyal.JPG   58.89K   0 downloads

[quincey]

Newspaper wise the Dublin 'Protestant' papers arent yet available  online, so online paper wise things are limtited newspaper wise to the  Irish Independant.


Thanks for the input. Nothing over and above what i had unfortunatly.

There will be a piece on the unti appearing in next weeks Belfast Newsletter (11th April 2012).

The reason the easter week appearance is the fact that the Fowler Hall had a tenuous connection with the Easter Rising, also it was used by anti-treaty IRA in 1920+. In turn over 90 LDV rifles were found in the Hall in 1935. All nice snippits and a sense of irony as well.


Any other thoughts or information would be greatly welcome.

All i have image wise is a LDV badge and a 1920's photo of fowler hall. Any other images would be welcome as well.

[murrough]

Quote

Newspaper wise the Dublin 'Protestant' papers arent yet available online, so online paper wise things are limtited newspaper wise to the Irish Independant

The Irish Times is available online but a subscription is needed(very expensive).BTW the Irish Independent was considered a  pro Unionist paper and pro British paper  at the time of the War on Independence.

[quincey]

http://www.newslette...ation-1-3719467

[pietro]

Hi Quincey

I don't have anything to add at present, but I'm interested in your research.

Peter

[jonathan b]

The Newsletter article, full page spread, is a very good interesting read, do you plan to continue with other unusual topics from this era ?

What would be really good to know is, if there exists a membership list anywhere ? and does anyone anywhere have photos of them in their volunteer uniforms ?

and if anyone researching has came across soldiers from the Great War, returned, wounded or killed in action who had been members of the Loyal Dublin Volunteers.

[jdoyle]

when my maternal Gt Grandparents married, the address given for my Gt Grandmother was 10 Rutland Square

http://churchrecords...s/3f456b0541670

A Canadian ("British American") soldier with his NoK address as the LOL @ 10 Rutland Square

http://www.canadiang...nt.asp?ID=70885


Of the VTC killed during the Easter Rising (Francis Browning, Thomas Harborne, John Gibbs, Ronald Clery, Joseph Hosford), I can't find any in the list of those who signed the Ulster Covenant. Does that mean they were not members of the LDV?

The 1916 Rebellion Handbook has the Dublin VTC members carrying old Italian rifles rather than Lee Enfield or Martini Henri's. (A raid by Irish Volunteers on the Cork VTC in Sep 1917 netted 50 Lee Enfield and Martini Henri rifles)

Amongst the wounded was Robert Andrew Anderson who worked for Sir Horace Plunkett. Another who didn't sign the Ulster Covenant. He lost 2 sons in the Great War.

The other wounded included the following, none appear to have signed the Covenant

L H Ford
W J Horne
H Green
J Redding
W Scott
George May


My understanding is that the Dublin VTC folded in November 1917 partly because official recognition was still not forthcoming from the Central Association of the VTC in England.

[quincey]

jdoyle, being a member of the LDV was not conditional on signing the covenant. To the contrary, it was specifically formed for those that couldnt sign it.

There were 768 men and women who signed hte covenant in Dublin. The numbers reported as being in the L.D. Volunteers were 2000. This appeared in several different newspapers with differing political viewpoint, usually a reasonable sign of accuracy.

Any records of the corps were without doubt destroyed during IRA occupation of their 'headquarters' in 1921, indeed a massive amount of important records were destroyed. I was able to get my hands on several badges though which like UVF badges were all numbered. 736, 936, and 1422 were the numbers. Thats a verifiable 1400 volunteers minimum.

Jonathon i intend doing a lot more research and writing of this nature. There is so much forgotten history out there. There were several other units across the South including Loyal Cork Volunteers and at least one anti home-rule corps in Wicklow.

The next piece for the paper will be a look at the South Armagh UVF of 1912-1914.

I welcome any ideas or input. My main field of interest is of course the anti-home rule movement in Ireland, across Britain and even further afield (From Oz to Africa!!)

[jdoyle]

as far as I can tell, the 768 who signed in Dublin were all women. Was there a signing organised for the men in Dublin?

Can you post up images of the badge? Would be interesting to see what they look like.


The VTC HQ (or at least one of the units HQ) was in Beggars Bush Barracks. Any idea if any records from there survive?

[Stanley_C_Jenkins]

I thought that women signed a "Declaration" rather than the Covenant?

[quincey]

Have to confess i just did the dublin search and never realised that there werent any male figures listed. I was after a total figure and had selected both covenant and declaration. Women of course signed the declaration. Will have to check this out further.

It would have to be assumed there was a signing in Dublin for the covenant. From my own experience looking at the original documents however i know for a fact that some of the initial cataloging is jumbled. My own area Redrock was atually listed in two different parliamentary constituences even though it was only signed in one place.

An interesting related resource is that of the Presbyterian Roll of Honour. You can view the members 27 churches of the Dublin Presbytery who enlisted here:-
http://freepages.gen...hpci/index.html


Theres one of the badges on the very first post.

[jdoyle]

Wasn't sure if the badge at the top was or wasn't the same as the ones you'd got. Any chance of a photo of the back with makers mark?

Any idea what happened to the arms and ammo found?

[murrough]

From the Indo of October 15 1914

Attached Files

•  ldv Indo aug 1914.jpg   38.61K   5 downloads