25 replies to this topic

[stuartd]

I have posted about this topic before and manged to get some very useful replies. However, the mods moved the topic and it has now been lost and all the useful information supplied is now gone! What I am trying to get hold of is more information about house buying in this period. Now I fully understand that most people did not rent and that the majority of the population rented - even more well off people. However, if I wanted to buy a house how would I finance it i.e. we have now got used to 25 year term repayment / interest only mortgages but how was the finance arranged in this period? Furthermore, does anybody have examples of what houses actually cost? Clealy then as now there's a wide variety but any examples would be appreciated. Also, where did one go to see what houses were for sale? Were there estate agents? In the newspapers?

Any help much appreciated.

[David Faulder]

Bairstow Eves website:

Quote

About Bairstow Eves       With an extensive and vibrant history, Bairstow Eves has been an  established name in the residential property market for over 100 years,  working successfully as both Estate Agents and Letting Agents. Starting life in North London, Essex and Hertfordshire,  we now have circa 255 offices across the country, offering you the  largest audience of potential buyers for your property as possible.  

      Originating back to 1899, Bairstow Eves, as known today, was  initially an amalgamation of two distinct companies; Charles Eves &  Son, established in 1899 and Stanley J Bairstow established in 1928. The  amalgamation took place in 1953 when the two firms began trading under  the name Bairstow Eves & Son.

William Willett (of daylight saving fame) set up an Estate Agency (Willett Estate Agents) in the first decade of the last century.

David

[CGM]

The lost thread might be this one

Regards
CGM

[stuartd]

Not so lost then! Just me not looking hard enough.

[stuartd]

That said, I'd still welcome any new contributions.

[Terry_Reeves]

Stuart

This article in the New Statesman shows that only 10% of housing in the UK was owner-occupied in 1914:

http://www.newstates...ng-social-glynn

The National Archives have a number of interesting files on housing during the war and although they won't answer all your questions, they make interesting reading:

http://tinyurl.com/6b3xsft

Also the Victoria County History for your own area will have a information with regards to local housing matters for the period . These volumes can be found at your local library and some are online.  Also check out your local newspapers.

TR

[Dave Swarbrick]

There's a little bit of information here:

https://www.nationwi...-us/our-history

Some statistics here:

http://www.ashmus.ox...Slides/Samy.pdf

a bit more here:

http://www.flickr.co...red/2128411673/

My reading of 19th century newspapers tells me that there were local building societies being started on a fairly regular basis - certainly in the last twenty-five years of the century.

Dave Swarbrick

[David Faulder]

Dave Swarbrick, on 23 March 2011 - 07:35 PM, said:

>><<
My reading of 19th century newspapers tells me that there were local building societies being started on a fairly regular basis - certainly in the last twenty-five years of the century.

Dave Swarbrick

Reading the Obituary (unidentified cutting in my Grandmother's scrapbook) of my 3xGreat Grandfather, Henry Snape (d. 1889), I see:

Quote

... He was one of the pioneers of the Building Society movement in this neighbourhood, being a director of the First Dalton Building Society nearly 60 years ago.  He continued to be actively connected with these activities until advancing age caused him to resign his chairmanship of the Third Prince of Wales Building Society a few years ago. He continued to be actively connected with these activities until advancing age caused him to resign his chairmanship of the Third Prince of Wales Building Society a few years ago. ...

This would put the foundation of First Dalton as being before 1830.

David

[David Faulder]

Wikipedia indicates:

Quote

The first building society to be established was Ketley's Building Society, founded by Richard Ketley, the landlord of the Golden Cross inn, in 1775.^[4]

[4] Rex, Simon (2010-04-20). "The History of Building Societies" . Building Societies Association. Retrieved 2010-09-06.; Ashworth, Herbert (1980). The Building Society Story. London: Franey & Co.. p. 2. ISBN 0900382384.

[seaJane]

Terry_Reeves, on 23 March 2011 - 06:43 PM, said:

Stuart

Also the Victoria County History for your own area will have a information with regards to local housing matters for the period . These volumes can be found at your local library and some are online.  

TR

This is the link for the VCH online http://www.victoriac...yhistory.ac.uk/

[Magnumbellum]

One important factor to be borne in mind when considering late Victorian/Edwardian house ownership is that, apart from the prevalence of renting as against owner occupation, even when purchase was entertained it was often leasehold rather than freehold.

As to methods of purchase, auction was much more common than today. I have one example from my own family history. My grandfather, a humble clerk with nine children and therefore by no means wealthy, heard that his rented house was up for auction, and attended the sale out of simple curiosity rather than with any thought of participating. He found that his terrace house and the adjoining one each side were being sold as one lot, leasehold, all with sitting tenants, he being one. The going was sufficiently attractive that he bought the lot, working out that the purchase price (presumably obtained from a building society, but we have no details) could easily be recouped from rents receivable from his neighbours, now his tenants..

[Dave Swarbrick]

The Land Tax records for 1910, copies of which should be available at the local county record office, give a complete listing of every property and its value. Here are a few from my own research to show you what to expect:


Extract from Land Tax returns 1910:
68700
41, Sedgwick Street, Preston
House
Occupier: M. Swarbrick
Owner: William Whittle, 16, Dorset Road, Preston – freehold
Value £165 0s 0d let weekly at 5/- [£13 0s 0d p.a.] owner paying rates
B.B.&S house, stone jambs and head to door, in fair condition & repair, lobby, parlour, kitchen, scullery, flagged yard and WC, 3 bedrooms.


68610
147, North Road, Preston
House and shop
Occupier: John Swarbrick
Owner: N. A. Duckett, Bowgreave, Garstang
92 sq. yards; Value £420, let quarterly at an annual rent of £24
B.B.&S house and shop in good condition, piano shop with modern front – kitchen, scullery, flagged yard and WC, 4 bedrooms – tenant paying rates.

136, North Road, Preston
Shop
Occupier: John Swarbrick
Owner: Richard James Pemberton 6, Bushell Place, Preston
Rented quarterly at an annual rent of £18 14s 0d [8/- per week]
Shop with modern front, large storeroom out back – owner paying rates

68696
14, Harold Street, Preston
House
Occupier: Matthew Nixon
Owner: John Thomas Swarbrick, 147, North Road, Preston – freehold
Value £70 0s 0d, let weekly at £8 4s 8d p.a.
Vestibule, kitchen, scullery, WB, 2 bedrooms, flagged yard & WC, old range


29, Sussex Street, Preston
House
Occupier: A. Green
Owner: J. T. Swarbrick, 147, North Road, Preston – freehold
Value £135 0s 0d, let weekly at £13 0s 0d p.a.
B.B.&S house, not in good condition, stone jambs and head to door, lobby, parlour, kitchen, scullery, flagged yard & WC, 3 bedrooms.

68702
3, Oakley Street, Preston
House
Occupier: James Lyon
Owner: John Thomas Swarbrick, 147, North Road, Preston – freehold
Value £130 0s 0d let weekly at £11 1s 0d p.a. Owner paying rates of £3 9s 9d
Old brick built and slated cottage, not so good condition and repair, 2 up & 2 down, flagged yard

It would be possible, though extremely time consuming - to analyse a whole area to see how many properties were owner-occupied and how many rented.

Dave Swarbrick

[stuartd]

This is really interesting information and I appreciate people's replies. Does anyone know, however, how the financing of buying a house worked? Also so I take leasehold to mean that even houses in this period were often freehold with a yearly payment to the freeholder - presumably some local landowner or industrialist?

[centurion]

stuartd, on 24 March 2011 - 09:30 AM, said:

This is really interesting information and I appreciate people's replies. Does anyone know, however, how the financing of buying a house worked? Also so I take leasehold to mean that even houses in this period were often freehold with a yearly payment to the freeholder - presumably some local landowner or industrialist?

Building societies existed and mortgages could be obtained which you paid off very much as at present. Mortgages could also be obtained from the bank by individual negotiation. Some builders ran a sort of never never system. Some borrowed from relatives and the bank of mum and dad operated even then (albeit not so widely)

Leasehold can mean that you own the house but not the land on which it stands or that you have taken out a long lease on a house and the residual amount of this could be bought and sold

[David Faulder]

stuartd, on 24 March 2011 - 09:30 AM, said:

This is really interesting information and I appreciate people's replies. Does anyone know, however, how the financing of buying a house worked? Also so I take leasehold to mean that even houses in this period were often freehold with a yearly payment to the freeholder - presumably some local landowner or industrialist?

Taking one area - the North Side of Huddersfield:
I believe that for most of this area the freehold was owned by a limited number of estates - I think the Ramsden and Thornhill families accounted for a lot of the area - and these estates specified a lot of what would now be called planning regulations.

David

[centurion]

David Faulder, on 24 March 2011 - 12:17 PM, said:

Taking one area - the North Side of Huddersfield:
I believe that for most of this area the freehold was owned by a limited number of estates - I think the Ramsden and Thornhill families accounted for a lot of the area - and these estates specified a lot of what would now be called planning regulations.

David

Many such arrangement exist to this day. When we came to sell my late parents house (built in 1932) we discovered that they were paying the humungous sum of £3 per annum to the executors of some estate. They had had the right to convert the leasehold to freehold (now usually  a statutory one) for a relatively small sum but my Father had decided it wasn't worth the hassle. It did hold up the sale for a few days and allowed the solicitors to trouser a bit more money.

[stuartd]

Members following this thread may be interested in:

http://www.guardian....ices-put-online

[stuartd]

And this:

http://www.ashmus.ox...lides/Offer.pdf

[stuartd]

House loans from the bank of 2/3 of the value of the property over a six year term - no wonder 90% rented!

[centurion]

stuartd, on 01 April 2011 - 05:52 PM, said:

House loans from the bank of 2/3 of the value of the property over a six year term - no wonder 90% rented!

No its why people who bought went to a building society. Banks didn't really get into domestic property until the 1980s. Getting your money from a bank was regarded as getting into debt, of which most people had a horror. Because Building Societies were mutual and you had to have been a saver before you could borrow they were regarded as more acceptable. However you had to be a member in good standing and most found it easier to rent. My grandfather was a bank manager and they had a nursery maid, a maid and a cook between the wars but he never became a property owner - he rented.

[stuartd]

Surely though that still does not change the fact that a 33% deposit and a repayment period of 6 years for the rest of it made for financial terms beyond the reach of most.

[centurion]

stuartd, on 01 April 2011 - 06:20 PM, said:

Surely though that still does not change the fact that a 33% deposit and a repayment period of 6 years for the rest of it made for financial terms beyond the reach of most.

Yes that's part of the point I was making - obviously not clearly enough. The building societies were much less restrictive

[stuartd]

Definitely not clearly enough as having just looked through your posts I can't see you've made the point at all.

[David Faulder]

Banks used not to "be in the home loan" market so for house purchasers they required high deposits and short terms (like for car loans).  Building Societies where set up to avoid this; you saved with them for your deposit - which would be lower because they trusted you and they were in business for the long term, so they granted mortgages over longer periods?

David

[centurion]

David Faulder, on 01 April 2011 - 10:20 PM, said:

Banks used not to "be in the home loan" market so for house purchasers they required high deposits and short terms (like for car loans).  Building Societies where set up to avoid this; you saved with them for your deposit - which would be lower because they trusted you and they were in business for the long term, so they granted mortgages over longer periods?

David

Which is more or less what I said in post 20  I thought