22 replies to this topic

[Auimfo]

From today's paper....

More Diggers from Fromelles identified
JOSEPH CATANZARO, The West Australian
April 6, 2011, 5:14 am

At least 10 more Australian soldiers found buried in a mass grave near the World War I battlefield of Fromelles have been identified, among them a Digger who served with WA's 32nd Battalion.

Sources confirmed that army personnel yesterday called descendants of the lost Diggers to tell them that, after almost 95 years, their relatives' remains would finally be accorded the dignity of a name in death.

It is understood 14 of the 154 still officially unidentified soldiers will be named in an announcement, possibly as early as today.

Sources said one of the identified Diggers had served with the 32nd Battalion, which was made up of South Australian and WA recruits.

The impending announcement could see another of the 12 West Australians still thought to be among the unknown dead identified.
(This is just supposition by the Journo because it's a WA paper - Tim)

The remains of the soldier who served with the 32nd Battalion were revealed yesterday to be those of South Australian private Maurice Leslie Reid after his great niece Josie Price confirmed she had received the phone call her family had been waiting on for almost 95 years.

"They (the army) called me today. I've got goosebumps," she said.

The 63-year-old Port Augusta resident said an enduring family mystery about a young man who never came home had been laid to rest.

Service records show Pte Reid went missing at the Battle at Fromelles on July 19, 1916, during the bloodiest 24 hours in Australian military history.

By the time the guns fell silent on July 20, 5533 Diggers had been killed, wounded or captured, 718 of them from the WA 32nd Battalion.



That's exactly the information I received yesterday as well but what I don't know is whether the number 14 is only from the ID Board's Day 1 deliberations and if there are to be more identifications made during the remaining three days.   Either way it'still a great result!!

Cheers,
Tim L.

[susanhemmings]

It is a wonderful result.
They will now be able to truly rest in peace.
I feel for the families.

[Scotty]

Great news Tim. Thanks for the update. Scotty.

[seadog]

This is really good news and a remarkable achievement but where are the Brits, are they still to found?

Regards
Norman

[MelPack]

seadog, on 06 April 2011 - 07:09 AM, said:

but where are the Brits, are they still to found?

Norman

I think that you may underestimate the enormity of the task involved in securing any British identification.

We do not possess the comprehensive service papers of the Aussies that would help in narrowing down the number of possible candidates. Moreover, there are 331 missing British of the 61st Division with no known graves which on a random probability basis alone makes it 110:1 shot for the successful identification of any one of the three sets of remains that have been confirmed as British by nationality.

There is absolutely no possibility of all 331 British missing having DNA compatible bloodline relatives tested on their behalf.

Constructing the genealogy for a single soldier, tracing and contacting DNA compatible donors requires an enormous amount of time and effort. Multiply that by 331 and then you will have some conception of the Sisyphean task involved.

That said - and this is being a little rash - I will eat my hat if one or more of the British are not successfully identified at a future Board.

Mel

[seadog]

Sorry Mel I did not make myself clear, what I did mean was, are the Brits in similar burial pits as the Australians were and are yet to be found or is it a case that they are scattered throughout the battlefield area.

Regards
Norman

[MelPack]

Hot of the press:

http://www.smh.com.a...0407-1d69f.html

Further confirmation of Tim's report.

Among the 14 soldiers identified are three Victorians - Tarraville grazier David Frederick Livingston, Maryborough labourer Thomas Francis Sheridan and North Carlton bank teller Herbert James Haslam.

The majority are from NSW, including Albert Clive Bromley, who was an 18-year-old railway employee from Brewarrina when he enlisted in 1915. He left for war with his brother, Sidney, and both found themselves at Fromelles in July 1916. They were killed the same night - and, says one witness, by the same shell. Sidney's body was recovered by the Graves Registration Unit after the war and buried at nearby Ration Farm Cemetery. But it took until today  for the final resting place of his brother, Bert, to be revealed.
http://www.brisbanet...0407-1d6cv.html

Mel

[Auimfo]

There's a small error in that news article Mel.   Frederick Fletcher was a Corporal and not a Colonel.

I have the list of names but have given my word not to make them public until officially announced.   However, because this article names a couple and there are a few others already mentioned elsewhere on the web, I can confirm the following ones:

1390 Private Herbert James HASLAM, 29th Bn
4744 Private Albert Clive BROMLEY, 53rd Bn
2056 Private Matthew HEPPLE, 30th Bn
3256 Private Maurice Leslie REID, 32nd Bn
1168 Corporal David Frederick LIVINGSTON, 29th Bn
3310 Corporal Frederick FLETCHER, 55th Bn
Captain Thomas Francis SHERIDAN, 29th Bn

I'll be able to supply the rest some time tomorrow.  (although they'll probably leak out elsewhere first)

Cheers,
Tim L.

[susanhemmings]

Poor blighters. So very tragic. Thanks for update.
RIP fellows.

[J Banning]

Great news and congratulations to the team who continue to work so hard on this project. Your diligence is a real example of how things should be done.

On a separate note though I do wish the press would get the story straight though. If I have to read again that the mass graves were discovered in 2009 I think I will scream. Lambis did a fantastic job and deserves all the plaudits he has received but the official process was instigated by the unearthing of the original German burial order from Oberst Julius Ritter von Braun, commander of 21st Bavarian Reserve Infantry Regiment which detailed precisely where, how, by whom and when the Pheasant Wood burials were to take place. It was found in 2006 by Dr. Lothar Saupe, Curator of the Hauptstaatsarchiv Kriegsarchiv in Munich. This set the ball rolling for a non-exploratory dig in 2007. GUARD's work in 2007 revealed the outlines of the pits and suggested that the ground had been undisturbed. Most importantly the finding of the two tiny Australian pendants was the key event. That led to the 2008 dig where GUARD actually discovered the remains. These erroneous press reports give such a misleading impression – it is almost if Oxford Archaeology pitched up in 2009 for the mass grave excavations and body retrieval and hey presto! there are the bodies. It ignores years of work by people who did so much for the Fromelles project.

Oh, and a well done once again to the team for such sterling work!

[SPOF]

Auimfo, on 07 April 2011 - 02:35 PM, said:

I'll be able to supply the rest some time tomorrow.  (although they'll probably leak out elsewhere first)

Cheers,
Tim L.

Tim

As you feared, you've been beaten to it

http://www.dailytele...r-1226035648282

Glen

[Auimfo]

Wow......so much for the embargo on publishing the names until after the official announcement by the Minister tomorrow!!

Cheers,
Tim L.

[SPOF]

Another news article (including a photo of Capt Sheridan named above)

http://www.abc.net.a.../08/3185559.htm

[David Underdown]

List now on CWGC website http://www.cwgc.org/...ad.php?file=533

[DavidB]

Tim,
       The name of Pvt Ryan (the only one mentioned because he was a local) from Goulburn was mentioned on the local TV news tonight. By the way it was treated one would think he was the only man
identified.

[Auimfo]

That's right David,

743 Private Daniel Bernard RYAN, 30th Battalion from Goulburn NSW.

Did they happen to have a photograph of him?   I'm trying to track one down and so far have struck out!!

Cheers,
Tim L.

[MelPack]

Tim

I am curious to know as to how many of your original 191 have been tested thus far and the number of successful Ids that fall outside that group.

Mel

[Tjapaltjarri]

Interestingly none of the 11 men for whom I identified a DNA relative prepared to give a sample and sent the details to the Australian DoD , from the 23 British born on the list and yet to be identified appears on the Telegraph's list. Are more results expected from the 2011 round of results?

Howard

ps Tim my computer crashed before Christmas and I lost a lot of files but have retrieved my sent emails and will forward the info you asked for. H

[Fedelmar]

http://www.army.gov....lidateddata.pdf

This list of names does not contain the 14 from this week.  Mind you it says at the 'front door' that 100 have been identified yet I think it is 110.

Tim hasn't altered the list and added the 14 on our website yet ... www.fromelles.net but if you marry the information on the both of them it will help a little.

I have sent the DoD Fromelles project an email asking for clarification on the list and the names of those needing to be identified.

Bright Blessings
Sandra

[Blackblue]

Great news.

Rgds

Tim D

[Auimfo]

Mel,

I can't be certain how many soldiers on the original list of 191 have had descendants tested - that's info kept by the DoD and privacy laws restrict what they can release.

However I can tell you that from the original round of testing in 2010, twenty identified men had not appeared on the original 'working list'.   On this occasion, three of the fourteen weren't on that list.

I've always said that there would almost certainly be unexpected names because it was unreasonable to expect the Germans would've been able to identify every set of remains they buried and thus they couldn't record their details on any death list or death voucher.   That's why, even after the list was compiled, the DoD's Fromelles Project Group were deliberately 'inclusive' of any other possibles rather than 'exclusive' and hence we've had greater success.   I'm not so sure that the JCCC have the same approach..   

Cheers,
Tim.

[MelPack]

Tim

Thanks for the clarification.

I would have thought that the 23 IDs outside of the original 191 augurs well for a future tranche of identifications given that a pool of 104 remain from the original 'working' list.

There is, of course, the 'small' matter of the ball-breaking genealogical work for which you and Sandra have my sympathy and empathy.

Mel

[Auimfo]

Tjapaltjarri, on 08 April 2011 - 06:28 PM, said:

Interestingly none of the 11 men for whom I identified a DNA relative prepared to give a sample and sent the details to the Australian DoD , from the 23 British born on the list and yet to be identified appears on the Telegraph's list. Are more results expected from the 2011 round of results?

Howard

ps Tim my computer crashed before Christmas and I lost a lot of files but have retrieved my sent emails and will forward the info you asked for. H

No problems Howard.   I'll be very interested to see what action has been taken regarding these men once you've sent me the details.

Cheers,
Tim L.