84 replies to this topic

[J Banning]

The Channel 4 Time Team Special on last May's archaeological dig for the Livens Large Gallery Flame Projector dig at Mametz is to be aired at 9pm on Thursday 14 April. The working title was 'Breathing Fire' but C4 appear to have retitled it 'The Somme's Secret Weapon'. http://www.channel4....ies-6/episode-2
It has been edited down to fill a one hour slot (9pm – 10pm) – 48 minutes of actual programme. A much longer version (approx 83mins) will be aired internationally later in the year. Details and TX card to follow when I have them.  

Attached Files

•  Channel 4 web page.JPG   62.73K   2 downloads

[seadog]

Sounds well worth a watch Jeremy, perhaps you can confirm as to whether or not the weapon was actually discovered as the original detail on the web at the time of the dig was very non-committal on this aspect. By the way 48 minutes sounds a bit optimistic, they start late and the first ad-break is about 10 minutes in followed by two more so I reckon about 40 minutes if we are lucky less say 15 minutes for the "reconstruction" that means just 25 minutes for the dig. Mind you I could be wrong!

Regards
Norman

[David Faulder]

seadog, on 07 April 2011 - 06:48 AM, said:

>><<By the way 48 minutes sounds a bit optimistic, they start late and the first ad-break is about 10 minutes in followed by two more so I reckon about 40 minutes if we are lucky less say 15 minutes for the "reconstruction" that means just 25 minutes for the dig. Mind you I could be wrong!

Regards
Norman

I fear you are;

• Is it just three breaks or four now-a-days?
• Before every break they spend time with "coming up after the break"
• After every break they spend time recapping "before the break"

It seems a great pity that the international audience is thought to have a greater attention span than the UK audience - particularly for a "UK subject".

I would be interested however in how they "did" (i.e. designed, constructed, installed and fired) the reconstruction.  So you can't please everybody!

David

[seadog]

Fair point David, mind you at least “Time Team” was not actively involved and we will  hopefully be spared the reconstruction of a whole pot etc from a miniscule shard symdrome. I met an eminent historical advisor to TT recently and when I put this to him he laughed and said “A whole pot surely you mean a complete civilisation”. Back to the prog, will there be reenactors I wonder?.

Regards
Norman

[J Banning]

Yes Norman, the dig was successful in achieving its objectives – parts of the machine were found. There was no censure on this information and the hundreds who attended the open day and every day of the dig were told of this.I'm sure that info found its way onto the forum at some point too.
Answering David's point, it is not a question of the broadcasters perceiving the international audience having a longer attention span than the UK population but merely a question of when C4 can fit the programme into their schedule. I would have preferred to have had the longer version aired but it is down to the broadcaster who part-funded the project as to when they show it. If it's frustrating for you, think what it is like for the many of us who spent so much time on it! The idea was first mooted in 2005 and I spent the best part of six months in the archives in 2009/10 plus much work this year on the museum exhibition to be held at the Historial from June – December.
Oh, and there are no reenactors as far as I know. Well, not in the version that I have watched! The premiere of the long version will be screened to an invited audience at the RE Barracks at Chatham on Monday. That should be a great occasion as the Corps were simply magnificent in their contribution and attitude.

[Mick D]

It's also on HD, with a series link !

Look forward to that.

Mick

[Chief_Chum]

Hi Jeremy,
We created a half-size Home Guard Flame Fougasse for Mandrill Television a few months ago. We used two 20 gallon drums filled with petrol (there would have been another two opposite them to vapourise anything in its path). This pic shows the moment of ignition but the fireball was massive and blew over 100 feet across the battlefield, filling the whole of this frame with white hot fire.
Nasty stuff but I'm sure the Livens will be much more impressive. Were they effective originally?
As for using reenactors for telly programmes - the awful adaptation of DH Lawrence's 'Women in Love' shows what happens when they don't use people who know what they are doing; the whole cast looking like they put their uniforms on for the first time an hour before filming started - every waistbelt upside down, soldiers milling around railway stations with no headgear, troops in battle in Marching Order (with empty packs and pouches) - not to mention WW2 rifles, and of course long flowing hair and beards. It looked like an attempt to remake a 1970s television version; just awful - but still expensive to make.
Looking forward to the Livens Large Gallery Flame Projector though...
Cheers,
Taff

Attached Files

•  HG Fougasse.gif   49.61K   0 downloads

[J Banning]

Hi Taff,
Nice shot! But just you wait until the programme to see what the modern RE do - the results are spectaular.
Must admit, I had no real qualms with the recent 'Women in Love' other than the nasty one needing a good haircut. Then again, I only watched the first episode as was away on a trip when the last one was aired. I'll try and catch it on iPlayer if time permits.  I know it is something you watch out for as your company does such a sterling job in getting everything spot on but for me I would much rather see a decent narrative, performances and direction for dramas and well made and well researched documentaries with the odd button or belt done up incorrectly than some of the total rubbish (but with uniform and props spot on) that gets made. It doesn't grate with me as much as it does with others. But I fear I am digressing…..  
I am actually on the Somme next Thursday so will miss the C4 airing anyway! It is the premiere of the full 83 minute version to be held at the RE Barracks at Chatham next week that I am really looking forward to.
Best wishes,
Jeremy

[Ken Lees]

I'm on the Somme next Thursday, too, so I'll miss it. Thank goodness for the internet. I've been eagerly awaiting this programme since I heard about the excavation.

[J Banning]

Just received the TX card - no new details but it looks nice.

Attached Files

•  Copy of Sommes Secret Weapon TX.jpg   66.41K   4 downloads

[Stebie9173]

Lots of us on the Somme on Thursday! We may just run into each other (again, Jeremy!) From what I have seen of the flame footage, it should be pretty impressive on TV.


Steve.

[Tim Wright]

The trailer for the programme looks excellent, with some footage of the RE reconstruction.

Tim.

[Piorun]

Fascinating and horrifying. Excellent production, Antony

[Desmond7]

Thanks for reining Tony Robinson in ... the engineering aspects were covered well for the layman. And, may I say, I FELT the heat from the TV screen in my kitchen where I was sent to watch the prog.

Yer man Barton had a face on him like mine when I opened up me christmas pressies and got a Johnny 7 Gun (and that was a LONG time ago)

[Agh57]

Watched it. Thought it was excellent!

Will the longer version get a DVD release. Even my 6 year old sat through the first 20 minutes and said he wanted to watch the rest when he gets up tomorrow!

Just as an FYI, you cannot have more than 12 minutes of adverts in an hour, it is set out in the OFCOM advertising regulations!

[Jonathan_nw]

Really good programme. Well done Jeremy. Have you any further info on the remains of the Soldier that Tony Pollard discovered?

[simond9x]

Excellent programme - really enjoyed it.  Sorry, I missed the first 10 minutes which may have explained it but why, apart from funding for the project, do these digs say "with time now against us" and "on the last day for digging"? The last find (the big tube thingy) surely showed that there was more down there to be discovered, so what happened after filming finished? Was the site closed down? Did further digging reveal more of the projector? Will the excavation be continued at a future date?

Sorry if I'm being a bit slow but I often wonder about this 'race against time' aspect when I watch the Time Team programmes.

[Desmond7]

Purely a race against production budgets - and if that budget was not there - no dig ...

[18th Battalion]

Interesting programme, it's an aspect of the the first day of the Somme that I hadn't heard of before; was the Livens Flame Projector a major contributor to the successful attacks in the Mametz area from the contemporary reports?

[CarylW]

Fascinating reconstruction of a horrendous weapon. The range and power of that flamethrower was absolutely terrifying and obviously goes without saying that it must have been so for those on the receiving end

Always good to see the military historian Peter Barton involved in a programme such as this and he was so pleased to find it after researching for so long. It was as if he couldn't believe it was finally found after all that time

I'd have given my right arm to have been there and watched that dig (or any battlefield dig) at close quarters and I would have been quite happy just to sift through the muck dug up by the digger (I'm a closet archeologist!) to see what else was found and equally happy to watch a programme just about that

Well done all concerned and Channel 4, even if it was the shorter version with ads. I'm not complaining
More please. (Peter Barton should have his own series - if he wanted it that is)

Caryl

[BJay]

Excellent programme Jeremy.

[iain mchenry]

Caryl, on 14 April 2011 - 11:23 PM, said:

I'd have given my right arm to have been there and watched that dig (or any battlefield dig) at close quarters and I would have been quite happy just to sift through the muck dug up by the digger (I'm a closet archeologist!) to see what else was found and equally happy to watch a programme just about that.

Caryl

Hi Caryl,

"At close quarters" is what we set out to do from the beginning of the dig and it worked very well. If you had have been able to have gotten to the Somme and visited the site we had our safety fencing as close as possible to the area that we and the archaeologists were working. This proved to be very valuable especially with the locals. The response we got locally was very warming and a lot of thanks go to the mayor, people of Mamtez and the surrounding villages, and Eric the landowner and his family. Right from the very beginiing we operated with the policy that the history we were uncovering was as much theirs (French) as it is ours. After all it was the French army who held the are prior to the arrival of the British.

I havent had the chance to watch last nights version, but judging by the inital comments it seems to have gone down well. I was working in Ypres last autumn and missed the chance to get to Chatham to see the firing of the working model. Both Jeremy and I had the oppurtunity to see the unfinished version of the longer documentary filmed for History Channel, when we were on the Somme late last year. When I saw the footage of the firing I was completly rooted to the spot. It must have been terrifying to have been anywhere near the receiving end of a burst from a machine like that.

The two French soldiers that were exhumed from the site by GUARD were initially handed to the CWGC and then on to the relevant French Authorities. We were a little dissapointed when we learnt that they had been buried, without notice, in a French military cemetery locally a few months later. Many of us from the team, and I am sure, locals would have attended their burials.

Best regards

Iain

[Terry Carter]

Hi

Great programme, Found it really interesting. Just one point. At the end it was stated that a Livens flame thrower was used only once more in May 1917. However, one was erected in a gallery running into No Man's Land in High Wood in August 1916. After being damaged by our own artillery it did manage to fire across to the German lines in High Wood.

Terry

[Chris_Baker]

Was the "1 July" specimen uncovered on the programme actually used in anger?

[roughdiamond]

Great programme, was interested to see what they were going to rig up to replicate the Livens Projector as an ex RE myself, lo and behold it was a load of kit I'm more than familiar with as my last post was Air Support, the fuel "pillow tanks", piping and pumps were all bog standard kit for fuelling aircraft in the field, it can also be used for pumping water, the real Heath Robinson part was the business end from the shut off to the welding torches, great job, well done and casualty free.

What I find strange was that post war, the Geneva protocalls banned the Livens Flame Projector and weapons of it's ilk yet not hand held flame throwers, vehicle mounted ones like the WW2 Crocodile tank or fuel/air weapons like napalm and the MOAB.

Sam