27 replies to this topic

[KateH]

Dear all,

For those who have a long long weekend and need something to go on with.

I am looking for some evidence possibly in the UK or France for an Australian nurse Bessie Kidson. I have some newspaper articles recording her as Bessie Finnerty, training at the Perth Children's Hospital in 1913-14, but no certificate of completion yet found.

Mrs Kidson married in October 1914 and supposedly left Perth, Western Australia in early November 1914 with her new husband Sgt Edric Doyle Kidson, AIF who unfortunately died on 25 April 1915 at Gallipoli.

While she states she served in the Australian Army Nursing Service, there is no surviving record of her having done so, nor does her name appear on any official lists. Nor can I find any record of her being with the QAs.

In an interview recorded in the 1970s, she states she served at 2 AGH Mena Hospital; Heliopolis Palace; Alexandria; Lemnos Apr15-May16; Wandsworth Hosp; Abbeville 'and all over'; Amiens 1916; 1 War Hospital Rubery 1916; French chateau Aug17; Dressing Station Menin Rd Passendaele; Cologne Germany 1919; Dublin Rotunda Hosp 6 months after the war ended;

The interview also states that she was awarded an RRC at Buckingham Palace in June 1916, and a Croix de guerre awarded by Joffre at Abbeville in 28/12/18.

I have seen a black and white newspaper photo of her wearing what looks like a Croix de Guerre but no RRC.

And now for the twist.

According to her family (a grandson), in March 1916 she had a baby, a son 'Miles Sedgwick' (or Sedgewick) being his christian names, born in London on 20 March 1916. So Sgt Kidson is not his dad. The Australian family has no birth certificate.

Can anybody help please with records for the decorations, birth certificates, working at Wandsworth Hospital, 1 War Hospital Rubery or any other hospital for that matter, or even training at the Rotunda in Dublin? All suggestions appreciated.

many thanks,
Kirsty

[Sue Light]

Kirsty

It sounds suspiciously like a fairy tale to me!  It would be interesting to know how old she was when she married to see if that gave her time enough to do a general training before children's training.  As I see that her husband was born in 1893, I suspect that she too was quite young and couldn't have fitted it in.

She certainly never got a RRC/ARRC.  There is only one Kidson in the whole register and that's a Sarah Ellen Ada Kidson, Matron of St. Luke's War Hospital. But as for the rest - how do you prove a negative?  She didn't go overseas from the UK as a member of the British nursing services either as a trained nurse or VAD.  She doesn't appear in the British Red Cross Register of Overseas Volunteers. I can find no birth for any child called Miles Sedg(e)wick Kidson registered in either the March or June quarters of 1916.  She seems to have been in several places all at the same time, and at the same time pregnant.  There are no surviving staff records for (what I presume to be) No.3 London General Hospital, Wandsworth, or for the 1st Birmingham War Hospital, Rubery Hill.  A dressing station on the Menin Road? The plot thickens

Sue

[KateH]

Hi Sue

Thanks for your response - and my apologies for the delay in thanking you.

Yes, it is a 'fantastic' tale.

As the child was not a Kidson, I presume that he had a different surname - perhaps Finnerty, perhaps ??? I know the family hasn't been able to find one.

She was 22 when she left Australia. I know from her family records she had not done general training before children's training. I can only presume that it was due to her family connections (both Kidson and Finnerty who had sway in Western Australia) that she was allowed on the boat.

Do you know (or anyone else) how one checks Croix de Guerre given in WWI?

cheers

Kirsty

[Sue Light]

Kirsty

Croix de Guerre awards were announced in the London Gazette, but whether it was some of them, or all of them, I'm not sure.  It can be searched online, although I have a feeling that there was an Australian edition which had the Australian awards - I might be wrong about that though.  I did check the LG for any likely Croix de Guerres to a Kidson or Finnerty around that time, or anything at all to a Kidson or Finnerty, which I didn't find (well there were other Kidsons and Finnertys of course, but not her!).
But it does seem to me, reading through what you've written, that there is not a single fact about her training, movements overseas, or wartime work that can be substantiated.  She was not telling the truth about the RRC, so to me that immediately makes other parts of her claims doubtful.  

Sue

[aussienoel]

141 pages of Edric Doyle KIDSON's military file may be viewed on-line at the National Archives of Australia.

Page 128 is a letter (1967) from Elizabeth, Edric's widow and next-of-kin as she describes herself. In it she states that she married William Charles NORDSVAN in 1920 (she doesn't say where). Looking at the NSW BMDs I see that the marriage was actually in 1919, in the Moree district of NSW, William C. NORDSVAN and Elizabeth B.B. KIDSON.

Also in the National Archives of Australia, but not on-line, are papers relating to Miles Sedgewick NORDSVAN, born 20th March 1916, London, England.
He served in the Second World War, rank of Captain, court-martial 1945. See also http://www.memorial....son.php?id=3625 There are two other Nordsvans on this memorial. One, I suspect to be Miles' brother (or half-brother) born in Moree 1918 (father William Nordsvan), the other Miles' son who served in Vietnam. At the NAA there's another NORDSVAN born in Moree in 1921 - another half-brother?

So one part of the story is true...I would guess that Miles' father was not a NORDSVAN, and that the boy adopted that name upon his mother's second marriage. However, I may be quite wrong in that respect.

The family is probably extant. It would be a simple matter for a direct descendant of Miles to apply for his service papers. They might hold something as yet unknown.

Noel

[Sue Light]

aussienoel, on 04 May 2011 - 10:18 AM, said:

So one part of the story is true...I would guess that Miles' father was not a NORDSVAN, and that the boy adopted that name upon his mother's second marriage. However, I may be quite wrong in that respect.

I'm not sure that it verifies that part of the story.  There is still no evidence to hand that Miles Nordsvan was born in London - he might have been, but it would take a very long search of every birth in England and Wales, without a surname, to find a likely match.  There are certainly no matching Kidson or Finnerty births either in the March or June quarters, 1916, and only one very tenuous 'likely' which is a Samuel G. Kidson born in Wolverhampton during that period, to a woman with the same surname, which makes it likely she was unmarried.  And it's also possible that he was not Elizabeth Kidson's child at all, and was adopted by the Nordsvans after their marriage.  There might be evidence of a birth certificate out there somewhere, but it's certainly  not evident anywhere in the UK BMDs.  And there would seem no likelihood at all of Elizabeth Kidson being pregnant, having a child, and fitting in all those work places in 1916.

Does it say when she married in 1919?  If she was in the UK/Germany/and Ireland during 1919, and then returned home, would there be some mention of her in the emigration/immigration returns - and presumably a son, if she had one?

Sue

[aussienoel]

Sue,

When I read Kirsty's original post I took it that she had no proof that Miles Sedgewick existed - the way the post is written ('According to family...') implies that to me - so I was adducing proof that he did indeed exist.

It would be necessary to buy the marriage certificate to obtain the exact date of marriage and all the attendant details that are found on a NSW marriage certificate. See http://www.transcrip...es/marriage.jpg for an example. The indexes are on-line, but not the details.

I accept that there is no actual proof that Miles was born in London, or that he was Elizabeth's biological son. However, his WW2 papers say that he was born there. He would have given that detail, so that's what he believed (or that's what he said). He married Alexandra Curtis in 1941, so once again the marriage certificate would show who he named as his father (if anyone).

Miles was on the electoral roll in the Australian Capital Territory (ACT) in 1937, suggesting he was indeed born 1916 or before.

I've searched the available passenger lists without success.

Incidentally, Elizabeth Bethel Nordsvan died in Beechworth, Victoria in 1981 aged 88, parents John Finnerty and Bertha (according to ancestry). In at least one of the electoral rolls she is described as a 'nurse.'

Noel

[Sue Light]

Sorry, I did believe he existed, but I do really love the 'conspiracy theory' aspects of this sort of thing
I'm a great lover of rubbish fiction, and recently read 'The Forgotten Garden' by Kate Morton, which is a tale of how easy it was to abandon and transport a child to another country (Australia) and start a whole new life - I must STOP!

Sue

[KateH]

Dear Sue and Noel

Thanks again for your responses.

Miles Sedgwick Nordsvan did exist - and I am in contact with the family (Miles' son). They told me that he did not have a birth certificate and they had been unable to find one. But taking a chance on the wonderous abilities of Forum members, I thought I would put it out there. Miles Sedgwick was known throughout his life as Bill (for reasons unknown).

Thanks Noel - I too have found the marriage certificate and WWII personnel records (and yes, the boys are related)

Elizabeth Nordsvan nursed extensively in the Albury/Wodonga area after the war, was often interviewed by the local paper, and was feted by the local RSL and local history society, even had a street named after her. So they must have believed her military nursing story. I have found a picture of her wearing the Croix de Guerre (or what looks like it) - will email to Sue as too big for forum.

I like the 'adoption' story best. I haven't been able to find out what ship she returned to Australia on. A passenger list with her and a child would be most useful.

cheers

Kirsty

[aussienoel]

Kirsty,

I, too, have found nothing on passenger lists, either arriving in or departing from the U.K. This could indicate that Bessie never left Australia. Or, is there actual evidence that she did, in fact, leave Australia at some stage in 1914-1916? If Miles was indeed born in London, then clearly he must have arrived here at some stage. But who knows under what name. If he was adopted, formally or informally, there is nothing to suggest where, and it could well have been here that he became part of the family.

As I see it, the only possible way forward is to purchase Miles' marriage certificate.

The only thing that really puzzles me is if Bessie did indeed fabricate her story why on earth she should wish to do so. As we all know - well, most of us - once we start to fabricate a story the more we build on it the greater the risk that that we will be brought undone in the end. And Bessie's was quite a detailed story.

I mean no disrespect to the lady, but if none of Bessie's descendants can adduce any evidence - any evidence at all - to support any part of her story, then surely it has to be regarded as untrue?

[frev]

Hi Kirsty, Sue & Noel

I see I'm a little late finding this thread - fascinating mystery!
Decided to have a quick look through Edric's file (quick? not likely with 141 pages!)

Anyway, I noticed that there was a benefits claim for Elizabeth (from 4/4/1916) with a Melbourne address - so checked for a birth in my indexes - and there is one!

Miles Sedgewick KIDSON is recorded as being born in 1916 at Clifton Hill, Vic - parents listed as Edric Doyle & Elizabeth (nee FINNERTY) - the registration number is 2268.
So Bessie was definately in Australia at some stage in 1916.  

As to possible reasons for a 'tale that might not be quite true' - could she have been 'beside herself' with worry over her missing husband - consoled by a friend that went a bit too far - found herself to be pregnant after it was possible for the child to be Edric's - told everyone she was going to do her bit & perhaps find out more news about her husband - then instead went to Victoria were she could have the baby in privacy............

Cheers, Frev

[frev]

Me again - still ploughing my way through Edric's file.

Just noticed that there is an amendment slip for Elizabeth's pension, dated 4/7/1917, and her address is then listed as The Bungalow, Mulgoa, NSW.
The address on the previous slip, dated 4/4/16 was 108 Grey St, East Melbourne, Vic.

She comments in a letter that she claimed her pension right up to her marriage to Nordsvan in 1920 - so her pension files will have details of where she was right up til then.

Cheers, Frev

[aussienoel]

Well, well, well. Nice work Frev. Never thought of looking here at home - all of us misled by the statement that the boy was born in London! The birth certificate will repeat the claim that the father was Edric Doyle KIDSON of course, but it would be an interesting memento for the family. Bessie's presence in Melbourne in April 1916 and then up in Mulgoa in July 1917 pretty well confirms that her war story was a fraud. And, of course, explains the absence of mother and son from passenger lists.

Not the first time the RSL and the Army has been completely taken in by a fraud.

Noel

[Sue Light]

Well done Frev - the nursing story is much too outlandish, especially for a woman who was not a fully-trained general nurse, but it's always hard to dismiss a claim without looking at it from every angle - far too little is known of nursing during the war to ever be sure without good evidence.
There have always been those who fabricate wondrous lives for themselves, and certainly are today - just think of all those false claims on CVs!  And until the last couple of decades, it would have been much harder to disprove a tale like this, especially one told with detail and sincerity.

Sue

[KateH]

Frev,

As always, my admiration - I too never thought to look at home - and I had had a glance through Edric Kidson's file.
Miles' grandson will be very pleased with all your efforts.
Now to find out how Mrs Nordsvan came to be wearing a Croix de Guerre...

cheers Kirsty

[Blackblue]

A bit on Bill.

http://www.memorial....son.php?id=3625

There are also a few photos of him in the AWM if you do a Collections search.

Rgds

Tim D

[frev]

KateH, on 16 May 2011 - 05:15 AM, said:

Now to find out how Mrs Nordsvan came to be wearing a Croix de Guerre...

Actually, when you think about the amount of detail that she had about the supposed places she worked etc during the war, it's highly possible she had a friend or relative who she was feeding off - perhaps that person had also won the awards - and she'd somehow acquired them?? (well the one anyway)

Kirsty, do you actually have any record of any AANS member receiving a CdeG?
Or anyone in your humungous database that might have a similar service record to the one Bessie claims?

Cheers, Frev

[frev]

Kirsty - remember that fried brain I was talking about - well it just cooled down enough for me to think straight - and check the AWM Honours & Awards file  

There is no record with them of an AANS nurse receiving a CdeG - (or a Kidson or Finnerty receiving one)
Still the possibility that she may have acquired it from a male friend though (if in fact she actually had one!)

Cheers, Frev

[aussienoel]

Surely such a prestigious award would have been reported in the Australian newspapers? I can find nothing on 'Trove.'

[Sue Light]

As in the UK, there must have been many sets of medals scuffing around in second-hand shops during the intervening decades.

Sue

[KateH]

Thanks again for everyone's comments and suggestions. I had a few leads I am following up and will report back to you. I also have a journalist interested in the story - which makes me more cautious to get the facts right.

One issue for all researchers looking at Australian women in the war is that the Australian War Memorial really only has an interest in those who served with Australian forces, thus omitting the records and stories of hundreds of other women who served with other groups. So just because it's not in the AWM doesn't mean it didn't happen. It is the AWM that has generated all the websites and lists but if they don't have the information, they can't include it. In fact, I know of 79 files that are missing simply from the AANS so they were not great record keepers to begin with. So it's great that Selena is looking at this issue in her new research.

K

[aussienoel]

Kirsty, you are quite right to be cautious. It is easy for us to express views on this Forum, but we have to be far more circumspect in going public.

Sue has already stated that no-one of the name of Kidson or Finnerty is listed in the roll of the RRC. If Mrs. Nordsvan made a specific statement in an interview that an RRC was conferred on her at Buckingham Palace in June 1916, I would like to suggest that you, or the journo, check all the RRCs conferred during June 1916. I think that you can do this by looking through 'The Times' digital archive (available through the SLV) and specifically at the 'Court Circular' section. It does not take long.

I may have missed somthing, so it's best to check my work. I have just looked through the archive. As far as I can see there were two occasions during June 1916 on which the King conferred RRCs - 7th June and 27th June. These were reported on 8th June and 28th June respectively. Kidson/Finnerty was not named. Several AANS nurses were.

It's worth noting that some 2-3 years ago (I'm guessing now) there was a thread in the 'Soldiers' forum on the Wood brothers of Canada, sons of a Mrs. Charlotte Wood. The story of Mrs. Wood and her sons is on the CWGC site - it is stated that several were killed in the war. The combined efforts of the researchers on the GWF were unable to substantiate most of the story.

Given that Mrs. Nordsvan has passed on, she cannot defend herself. However, if diligent research cannot substantiate some or all of the claims she made, then a statement to that effect is not out of order.

[KateH]

Greetings,

Just to let you know that a journalist from the border Mail newspaper, Howard Jones, splashed the story on Saturday, 25 June 2011 with the title 'The fairytale of Mrs Nordsvan" and citing yours truly. The cover photo shows Mrs Nordsvan wearing the croix de guerre. File is too big to upload here. PM me to get a copy. Thanks again everyone for your research and suggestions.
cheers
Kirsty

[Sue Light]

There's an online version here:

The border Mail - Mrs Nordsvan

Sue

Edit:  Sorry, but however many times I change the 'border' to 'border'  (with a capital) the result comes out without the capital letter - bizarre .

[aussienoel]

Thanks Kirsty for bringing this story out into the open. So many people gave and sacrificed so much that it is important to expose imposters.