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2nd Royal Scots October 1914


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#1 John1970

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Posted 08 May 2011 - 02:35 PM

hi all,

as per my other post: http://1914-1918.inv...0&gopid=1588646&

I am researching my Great Grand Uncle Private James Adens who was serving as a regular with the 2nd Royal Scots and was at the front for 27 days before he was captured in Ypres on 31st Oct 1914 and made a POW till 1918 - (I have his full army record from Ancestry).

I have searched on the forums - but if anyone could advise me on perhaps why he was captured? Was this part of the First Battles of Ypres? How many of his comrades died or were captured etc.

Does anyone have any documents or information that would in some way plot the movements of the battalion during the last days of October.

I think Private Adens was lucky to have been captured so early on and to miss out most of the bloody battles that the 2nd Royal Scots were involved.

thanks in advance,

John

#2 John Duncan

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Posted 08 May 2011 - 03:53 PM

The 2nd RS were involved in an attack on Neuve Chapelle around this time, the war diary makes no mention of casualties as such, I have attached the pages for the 28/29/30th there was no entry for the 31st.

John
Attached File  2RS-281014.jpg   33.85KB   11 downloads


#3 John Duncan

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Posted 08 May 2011 - 03:57 PM

Attached File  2RS-end-Oct-1914.jpg   23.2KB   5 downloads

#4 Malcolm

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Posted 08 May 2011 - 04:04 PM

The Royal Scots 1914-1919,by,Major John Ewing available from Naval and Military Press gives you several pages of description of the events.
In the attack above they were in support of the Sikhs.
The Battalion lost 56 killed on the 31st October.
Aye
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#5 John1970

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Posted 09 May 2011 - 10:29 AM

John Duncan,

Many thanks for those uploads they make excellent reading ! I was actually on the edge of my seat reading them!

It is a pity there is no entry for the 31st Oct though. Can I be bold as to ask if you could post the 1st November? or have a look to see what the aftermath was to the 2nd Royal Scots after supporting the brave attack by the Sikh battalion!

Malcolm,

Again many thanks for the heads up about that book, I see that there is a reprint so will try to track it down. Does it go into a lot of detail about the 31st Oct? My uncle was according to his service record, listed as missing at first, so am wondering if this would be part of the 56 killed.... or are these confirmed.

#6 Malcolm

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Posted 09 May 2011 - 03:33 PM

pp 61 to 70 cover Octobern 1914 and the 2nd Battalion action near Neuve Chapelle. Page 63 is a map of the area.
Aye
Malcolm

#7 dycer

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Posted 09 May 2011 - 05:59 PM

John1970,
I defer to Malcolm's reference to Ewing's Book, whose "all" Royal Scots Battalions service in WW1,devotes a section to the 2nd Battalion's actions in October 1914.
By all means find and buy a copy to gain, both, an understanding of the Regiment's service in WW1 and the events that led up to your "Uncle's" surrender which I doubt at the time he understood.
John D. will hopefully add the subsequent daily 2nd Battalion War Diary entries which may or not assist you ,in your personal research.I doubt it will. :D
Personally, I have gleaned, from the 8th Battalion's War Diary that I have one Ancestor "recorded" by number i.e, loss, not by specific Number, in the Battalion's monthly return of losses, so lack of men needed to be corrected per War Diary and was achieved.
The other,who is mentioned by Name in the War Diary, when he was an integral part of the Battalion,is recorded as one of the Battalion's subsequent anonymous monthly losses, to the enemy.
Both were killed,one has a "known" grave and the other does not?
Your ancestor survived what is the better option?
George

#8 John Duncan

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Posted 10 May 2011 - 07:07 PM

Hi John

The diary makes no real mention at all of casualties they relieved the Middlesex Regiment on the first and here is the entries for 2nd / 3rd

John

Attached File  2RS--Nov-1914.jpg   35.38KB   2 downloads

#9 archangel9

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Posted 10 May 2011 - 08:01 PM

John,

6360 Pte. J. Adens Royal Scots Fusiliers was reported missing in the Times edition of 10th February 1915. There are approximately 190 Royal Scots in the list. If you want a copy send me a PM.

John

#10 John Duncan

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Posted 10 May 2011 - 08:07 PM

If this is your man you can disregard all entries prior to the one by archangel19 as 2RSF are a completely seperate regiment from 2RS,can you confirm Royal Scots or Royal Scots Fusiliers?

John

#11 John Duncan

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Posted 11 May 2011 - 04:38 PM

"Dinnae say ah'm no guid tae ye" :thumbsup:

John

Attached File  RSF-01.jpg   71.93KB   16 downloads

Attached File  RSF-02.jpg   39.97KB   10 downloads

2nd RSF war diary for 31st October and 1st November, not often you see the word disaster in a war diary.

#12 ss002d6252

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Posted 11 May 2011 - 04:40 PM

MIC shows

James Adens 2nd Royal Scots Fusiliers A/6360

#13 archangel9

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Posted 11 May 2011 - 07:15 PM

The casualty list -

Attached File  10 Feb 1915.jpg   79.58KB   7 downloads

John

#14 flintwich

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Posted 12 May 2011 - 09:37 AM

"Dinnae say ah'm no guid tae ye" :thumbsup:

John

Attached File  RSF-01.jpg   71.93KB   16 downloads

Attached File  RSF-02.jpg   39.97KB   10 downloads

2nd RSF war diary for 31st October and 1st November, not often you see the word disaster in a war diary.



Sorry to jump in on someone else's thread, but does something like this exist for 1/8th ?

I've been sent the Haddington Courier booklet but wonder if the handwritten stuff is around.

Thanks

Al



#15 dycer

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Posted 12 May 2011 - 10:04 AM

Al,
The 1/8th Royal Scots War Diary copy,I have,is typed.
George

#16 John1970

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Posted 12 May 2011 - 10:42 AM

Do you ever have one of those moments when you just go DOH !!

I am so sorry for the lines of research that wasted peoples times due to my stupidity !! Esp Malcolm, John Duncan, dycer and others.

Private James Adens (my great uncle) was with the 2nd Royal Scots Fusiliers.

His brother Thomas Adens was the one with the 13th Battalion Royal Scots (Lothian Regiment), KIA 27th August 1916 in Flanders (who is next in my research).

and their cousin also called James Adens - was in the 1st Battalion Royal Scots (Lothian Regiment) and KIA in Salonika Sept 1916 (also in my future research).

I was obviously getting myself confused when typing !!

but all the other information regarding him is factual ! Including his capture and being a POW.

Thank you so much for posting the war diary for this day too !! It does appear to be a complete disaster!

I found this on the RSF website reading the diary and then this puts a shiver through my whole body!

October 1914 - GHELUVELT


In World War I the Regiment raised forty-five battalions and lost 17,000 officers and men in killed alone. The battle of Gheluvelt, Ypres was one of the more memorable actions fought by the Regiment when 2 RSF could fairly claim to have helped save the day. In October 1914 the German Army, having failed to gain a quick victory in France, sought to turn the left flank of the Allied Armies, sweep down the coast, thus cutting the British Expeditionary Force off from its base, and strike at the rear of the Allies. This move if successful would probably have brought the Great War to a disasterous conclusion as far as France and Britain were concerned.

The Germans failed because they were unable to break through the weary attenuated British Army which faced them at Ypres, the old fortified Belgian town which stands within a few miles of the coast.In this battle the 2nd Battalion the Royal Scots Fusiliers fought most gallantly on the Kruseik Ridge, two miles south of Gheluvelt village.

On the evening of 27th October the Battalion, now less than 500 strong, took up a position in the Kruseik area; A Company (Captain Le Gallais) and B Company (Major Burgoyne) held the ridge itself with the remainder of the Battalion supporting them. The Battalion had already been in the trenches since the 17th and had lost 8 officers and 500 men.

On the 29th the first German attack came with the dawn; that night, after a day's hard fighting, Burgoyne's two companies, considerably under strength, were surrounded on three sides by the Germans but maintained their position in the face of heavy oncoming fire. On this night Burgoyne was joined by D Company, less than 30 strong. The main attack came on the 30th and Von Fabeck's Army Group flung itself on the Gheluvelt Messines sector. On Kruseik Ridge the Fusiliers were almost completely cut off but the Germans despite all their efforts were still unable to dislodge them. Orders to Burgoyne, instructing him to withdraw, never reached him and Burgoyne himself was wounded and unconscious. That night it was obvious that the troops on the ridge were alone amongst the enemy, and Burgoyne, now recovered, ordered his three Companies to withdraw independently. Only A Company rejoined the remainder of the Battalion, for Burgoyne and the four survivors of his Company were captured when they stumbled into a German regiment in the dark.

Next day, the German assault reached its peak ; by nightfall the British line had been broken but, by a miracle, had re-formed and held, and Ypres and the Channel ports were saved

But in the holocaust the remainder of the Battalion had ceased to exist; all were dead or prisoners at the day's end save for 2 subalterns and 30 men who had been scattered and lost in the confusion.They re-formed on 1st November to find themselves the sole survivors of an entire battalion, although some others were able to rejoin later .

The 2nd Battalion was only part of the 7th Division, which held a two-mile front for ten days against two Army Corps, but it was by such examples as Burgoyne and his men set that the battle - and the war - was won. Moreover, had Kruseik Ridge fallen on the morning of the 30th, nothing could have stopped the German breakthrough that day and the road to the coast would have been open.

#17 WilliamRev

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Posted 21 May 2011 - 03:35 PM

"Do you ever have one of those moments when you just go DOH !!"

John1970, don't worry - the confusion between the Royal Scots and the Royal Scots Fusiliers has been going on for many years!

I have posted before on the Forum that my g-father's service-record (at that time 2nd Lt. S. Revels 1st Royal Scots Fusiliers) includes a letter in which (whilst recovering from concussion and shell-shock received when he was buried alive on the Somme in July 1916), the War Office attempt to post him to 3rd Royal Scots, instead of 3rd RS Fusiliers: there is a confused exchange of letters before he is correctly posted to 3rd RSF.

In a seperate thread I have just posted a portion of a poem by RSF poet W. F. Templeton in which he resents the fact that the press do not know that the RS and RSF are different, and a brave action by the latter is credited to the former.

William

#18 WilliamRev

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Posted 22 May 2011 - 12:35 PM

Private James Adens (my great uncle) was with the 2nd Royal Scots Fusiliers.

[snip]

I found this on the RSF website reading the diary and then this puts a shiver through my whole body!

October 1914 - GHELUVELT


In World War I the Regiment raised forty-five battalions and lost 17,000 officers and men in killed alone.



Just a minor point - although most of the article quoted concerning 2nd Royal Scots Fusiliers is more or less accurate, the above fact applies to a much larger regiment than the modest-sized Royal Scots Fusiliers who sent 8 battalions abroad during the Great War: - 1st and 2nd RSF (Regular); 4th and 5th, (Territorial); 6th, 7th, 8th and 12th (New Army) [this is a slight simplification because there was some re-numbering]. Altogether, they suffered around 5,500 killed, well over half of these being from the two Regular battalions.

John1970 - if you'd like to contact me via a PM [or at: william@williamrevels.com] with an e-mail address, I would be happy to e-mail you scans of the relevant pages from the History of the regiment, which has much more detail.

William

#19 Graeme Clarke

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Posted 14 June 2013 - 11:11 AM

Hi

An old thread but....

has anyone got the WD for

Tuesday 8 September 1914

Researching a man KiA this date,

Many thanks,

Cheers,

Graeme

#20 skipman

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Posted 14 June 2013 - 11:43 AM

RS or RSF? :whistle:

Don't have either, I don't think, but will check?

Mike