386 replies to this topic

[Mk VII]

In many regiments newly joined officers were directed to patronise a particular tailoring firm, to ensure some uniformity on parade (and maybe a kickback to the adjutant). Officers who were deemed to be 'improperly dressed'  could be, and often were, sent off parade and told to get the deficiencies remedied.  Certainly in WW2 the War Office specifically outlawed the practice of requiring officers to patronise regimental tailors - the fact that they had to repeatedly restate this ban suggests it was frequently ignored.

[Chief_Chum]

"What we should remember here is that, RAMC excepted, the regiments seen so far are fictitious"

They certainly are Peter. The decision had been taken before we were brought on board to make the two regiments which are featured in the series ficticious. Personally I always thinks it looks and sounds odd. The insignia never looks quite right and the names are always a compromise. We always advise using real units for no other reason than it gives everything points of reference; ie with a ficticious unit I will often be asked, "Which regiment would be next to them?" or "where were they based" - all questions which are impossible to answer. With real units these problems don't arise. Our current job is a feature film with the main characters firmly fixed in a real regiment, albeit with plenty of necessary dramatic license.

As I have said here before, if enough of you are up for it, we can always make an epic of our own and every aspect can have its own dedicated pedant... !

Cheers,

Taff

[GRUMPY]

Chief_Chum, on 22 September 2011 - 10:42 PM, said:

"What we should remember here is that, RAMC excepted, the regiments seen so far are fictitious"

They certainly are Peter. The decision had been taken before we were brought on board to make the two regiments which are featured in the series ficticious. Personally I always thinks it looks and sounds odd. The insignia never looks quite right and the names are always a compromise. We always advise using real units for no other reason than it gives everything points of reference; ie with a ficticious unit I will often be asked, "Which regiment would be next to them?" or "where were they based" - all questions which are impossible to answer. With real units these problems don't arise. Our current job is a feature film with the main characters firmly fixed in a real regiment, albeit with plenty of necessary dramatic license.

As I have said here before, if enough of you are up for it, we can always make an epic of our own and every aspect can have its own dedicated pedant... !

Cheers,

Taff

bags I play

2nd RWF RSM then ................ [to be promoted in the field, of course .............
and I get to marry the Colonel's daughter in the last episode, chest glittering with MC, DCM, MM, CdeG[Fr],CdeG[B] and the MSM and LS&GC.
my chest, not hers, hers is just heaving ..........]

then I woke up.

[Gibbo]

Moonraker, on 21 September 2011 - 05:55 AM, said:

I wonder if motoring and railway enthusiasts are getting as involved in detail on their forums. And wait until we see some nursing when, presumably, the Abbey gets taken over: "That would have never been allowed a hundred years ago" or "that sort of stethoscope wasn't introduced until 1919".


Moonraker

A letter from a Dcotor in yesterday's Times said that the cook ought to have been wearing heavy 'pebble glasses' rather than normal spectacles after her operation for bilateral cataracts at the end of the first series.

[Siege Gunner]

GRUMPY, on 23 September 2011 - 08:10 AM, said:

... then I woke up.

Matron, the Grumpmeister hasn't been drinking his bromide tea again ...  

[daggers]

Dcotor - is he from Dakota?

[Peter Doyle]

Chief_Chum, on 22 September 2011 - 10:42 PM, said:

The decision had been taken before we were brought on board to make the two regiments which are featured in the series ficticious. Personally I always thinks it looks and sounds odd. The insignia never looks quite right and the names are always a compromise.

Thanks Taff - as I thought. I'm with you on this - it's up to the writers I guess.  I was interested to see the blinded officer in last night's episode seemed to have Yorks & Lancs collar badges...

Cheers
Peter

Steven Broomfield, on 22 September 2011 - 12:13 PM, said:

IIRC, Shire Publications (or someone similar) brought out a very useful guide book to GW British cap badges, not too long ago. Maybe you can track one down  

Shire.....nice book, that.

[Stebie9173]

Yes, I agree. That Chris Foster bloke is a really good author...


Steve.

[GRUMPY]

Stebie9173, on 26 September 2011 - 09:57 AM, said:

Yes, I agree. That Chris Foster bloke is a really good author...


Steve.

printer did a decent job too!

[Sue Light]

Moonraker, on 21 September 2011 - 05:55 AM, said:

IAnd wait until we see some nursing when, presumably, the Abbey gets taken over: "That would have never been allowed a hundred years ago" or "that sort of stethoscope wasn't introduced until 1919"

Quite. I've been a devotee of Downton since the beginning, but I had to walk away into a quiet room last night, so have just viewed it again.  Fictitious or not, this was probably the most inaccurate portrayal of a Great War hospital I've ever seen, and fairly obvious that neither the writers nor the producer had any clue as to the organisation, management or staffing of a small UK military hospital of the time. It seems from previous comments that at least some care was put into getting the military detail right in the first programme, but this was pure fantasy.  The writers probably took the line that if they didn't know what was going on, then their mass audience wouldn't either.  And they're probably right - surely another national TV award for the series next year  

Sue

[Steven Broomfield]

I confess that having been mightily unimressed last week, this week I watched  arather good programme on C4 about helicopter crews in Afghanistan. Most enlightening, and I suspect all the military footage was accurate.

[GRUMPY]

Steven Broomfield, on 26 September 2011 - 01:01 PM, said:

I confess that having been mightily unimressed last week, this week I watched  arather good programme on C4 about helicopter crews in Afghanistan. Most enlightening, and I suspect all the military footage was accurate.

final damning judgement: my good lady wife "couldn't be bothered" to turn the programme on.

There is surely little more to be said!

[ianw]

Our "bad boy" RAMC man gets himself an SIW through the palm and is rewarded with a trip back to a nice soft hospital billet in Blighty. Seems mighty unlikely.

Very sad that this show has gone all soft and sloppy in its second series - too many awards methinks.

[Chris CPGW]

Stebie9173, on 26 September 2011 - 09:57 AM, said:

Yes, I agree. That Chris Foster bloke is a really good author...


Steve.

I much prefer Peter Doyle myself  

[Peter Doyle]

Aww, guys....

[GRUMPY]

ianw, on 26 September 2011 - 01:23 PM, said:

Our "bad boy" RAMC man gets himself an SIW through the palm and is rewarded with a trip back to a nice soft hospital billet in Blighty. Seems mighty unlikely.

Very sad that this show has gone all soft and sloppy in its second series - too many awards methinks.

strictly speaking I think not a SIW ..... he put himself in danger and a sniper obliged ...... is that a SIW?

[Peter Doyle]

Quote

strictly speaking I think not a SIW ..... he put himself in danger and a sniper obliged ...... is that a SIW?

I wondered that. Mind you, it looks pretty suspicious?

One question regarding RAMC in front-line trenches...excuse my ignorance...at what point did Battalion SB's handover to RAMC SBs, and who did what where?

Peter

[squirrel]

As for the RAMC chap with the hand wound.........as Grumpy says, not strictly a SIW, but just what would a RAMC man be doing to have himself shot in the hand, in a trench, at night, unless he had deliberately put himself, or more correctly, his hand, in danger? Surely questions would have been asked?

Perhaps he will have his belt on back to front next week....and another thing, how did the gas blinded Officer manage to put his hand on the RAMC chap's leg at one attempt, how did he find something sharp to cut his wrists with?
Surely a blind patient would not have been given anything sharp just in case he inadvertantly injured himself with it?

[Sue Light]

squirrel, on 26 September 2011 - 03:12 PM, said:

....and another thing, how did the gas blinded Officer manage to put his hand on the RAMC chap's leg at one attempt, how did he find something sharp to cut his wrists with?
Surely a blind patient would not have been given anything sharp just in case he inadvertantly injured himself with it?

There were simply so many inconsistencies and errors that I don't think there's any working them out.  Puzzling that the tiny cottage hospital just down the road from Downton, where Mrs. Crawley helps out, is taking in the 'injured and dying' straight from Arras.  And this little hospital would not of course had any RAMC orderlies, though it does seem that Thomas is their sole representative.
Despite being 'officers only' the beds are so close together - in some cases touching - in a way not seen since the first casualty clearing stations in France in 1914. It would not be possible to walk between the beds, or give any care/dress any wounds of the men in those beds.  And where does that large oak-pannelled room fit into the cottage hospital?  I don't remember it in the first series.  However, it does have a very tiny garden fitting in nicely with the tiny hospital - I'll accept the garden is OK.
Mrs. Crawley seems to be in charge.  No trained nurse in sight.  Mind you, Mrs. C. does only seem to have two VADs to supervise. Worrying that Lady Sybil, rookie VAD, is left to do the medicine rounds - hopefully she knows more about dispensing that she does about boiling water and making cakes.  And good to see her asserting herself and bursting in on the (only) doctor - Major something-or-other - to tell him exactly how he ought to be treating the patients.  And how thoughtful of sole-orderly Thomas to agree to Mrs. Cs request that he would take Lady Sybil's VAD shift so that she could pop home and have dinner with their visiting 'Sir.'
Considering that (in real life) small auxliary hospitals never took in casualties straight from embarkation or the seriously wounded, what a massive convoy they were admitting.  A long crocodile of raggle-taggle officers, shirts hanging out, slings and bandages over their service jackets, some in dressing-gowns, some in pyjama bottoms and coats; blood oozing through their dressings.  And good old Mrs Crawley and the Major did their bit to ease the chaos helping to move the stretchers and sliding patients in to one of the sardine-tin beds.  Oh, and Matthew popped in to give them a hand.
Can't wait for next week ...

Sue

[GRUMPY]

Peter Doyle, on 26 September 2011 - 03:08 PM, said:

I wondered that. Mind you, it looks pretty suspicious?

One question regarding RAMC in front-line trenches...excuse my ignorance...at what point did Battalion SB's handover to RAMC SBs, and who did what where?

Peter

a battalion had more than the doctor RAMC ... in 1914 there was one corporal and four privates. strictly speaking, not SB duties, which were provided by the band initially, although that arrangement broke down in time.

[Sue Light]

Peter Doyle, on 26 September 2011 - 03:08 PM, said:

One question regarding RAMC in front-line trenches...excuse my ignorance...at what point did Battalion SB's handover to RAMC SBs, and who did what where?

Regimental stretcher-bearers collected casualties and took them to the Regimental Aid Post.  From there they were collected by stretcher-bearers of the Field Ambulance and taken back via the Advanced Dressing Station > to the Main Dressing Station/Field Ambulance

Sue

[Peter Doyle]

Sue Light, on 26 September 2011 - 03:34 PM, said:

Considering that (in real life) small auxliary hospitals never took in casualties straight from embarkation or the seriously wounded, what a massive convoy they were admitting.  A long crocodile of raggle-taggle officers, shirts hanging out, slings and bandages over their service jackets, some in dressing-gowns, some in pyjama bottoms and coats; blood oozing through their dressings.  And good old Mrs Crawley and the Major did their bit to ease the chaos helping to move the stretchers and sliding patients in to one of the sardine-tin beds.  Oh, and Matthew popped in to give them a hand.
Can't wait for next week ...

Sue

I agree it seemed all over the place.

In such a hospital, Sue, would hospital blues have been worn, or was that only for walking out. And, in any case, did officers wear blues?  At very least this will aid in my education (through the forum, obviously!) And, another thing, was Lady Sylv's uniform working dress correct...?

Peter

[Sue Light]

Peter Doyle, on 26 September 2011 - 03:51 PM, said:

In such a hospital, Sue, would hospital blues have been worn, or was that only for walking out. And, in any case, did officers wear blues?  At very least this will aid in my education (through the forum, obviously!) And, another thing, was Lady Sylv's uniform working dress correct...?

Officers wore pyjamas and dressing-gowns, or perhaps night-shirts, depending on their condition, and uniform and greatcoats when outside. As far as I know, officers never wore hospital blues, either inside or outside.
And Lady Sybil's uniform?  A bit of a puzzle.  In some ways it didn't look bad, but why a grey dress?  VADs in hospitals affiliated to St. John's (as opposed to the British Red Cross) wore grey dresses, but then she was wearing a BRCS brassard, rather than a St. John one.  So I would have expected her to have been in a blue dress, which was by far the most common. And she wouldn't have had those short, starched white cuffs on while she was working.  But her hat was alright, and the overall impression rather better than some I've seen. The VAD uniform was the least of their problems

Sue

[Peter Doyle]

Sue Light, on 26 September 2011 - 04:01 PM, said:

The VAD uniform was the least of their problems

Thanks Sue, most informative.

Peter

[Mark Hone]

I enjoyed the second episode rather more, primarily because at least they didn't mess up the whole chronology of the war, as they did at the start of last week's episode. Personally, I've got past the stage of worrying whether people are wearing the right buttons or insignia for the North Devon Yeomanry in 1917, or whatever. I used to do that as a kid with guns and equipment in Westerns but nobody ever gets it perfectly right and you find yourself writing off every film you see over a mistake that not one in a thousand other people in the audience even noticed. However, you do expect people making stuff like this to make it broadly accurate and to fit in, say, with major Historical events. Unfortunately, Downton seems in may cases to have eschewed even the most basic attempt to make matters look authentic. I know virtually nothing about hospitals but even I realised that the medical scenes in last night's episode were pretty daft. As we keep saying it does make a sad contrast with the original 'Upstairs Downstairs' where you felt that they made a real effort to inject a level of versimilitude into proceedings.