14 replies to this topic

[hesmond]

This as been bugging me for some time ,and may evan be considerd very silly question .... but a few years ago i read an excellent book called Tatterd Banners ,its an account of the period pre Great War at the Imperial Russian court from a officer in the Russian Life Guard ,covers normal stuff ,Great war time in UK ,civil war , the murders of the royals ect and then in UK 1940s .

But in 1912 the officer is at the 100th anniversary of Boradino and is with the czar when they are introduced to 5/6 VETERANS from the battle ? one being a gunner officer the rest the usual russian pesant ,also included photographs and the gunner officer discussed events with the czar ! .Now this was either a huge con but i would not want to be old pesant caught makeing a fool of the czar ,Russian propagander ,but there were representives from France so you would not want to look stupid if caught out later ,or its true ?

The niggling question i ask my self is have all the Great War lads gone to soon ?i know we all here stories of all these old russians liveing to great ages but these blokes from Boradino were born in the 18th century hard life i would understand evan compared to soviet Russia ,so if some one can live to 120 ect and be alive in 1912 ,with all the morden  medical services good food ect why are all the old boys gone ?
The figures for service in the Great war is 70 million world wide ,Boridino 150,000+ .
Or out there some where in Africa , Russia ,Asia there an old boy ..... makes you think

[Roxy]

I'm not sure about the Great War veterans - I thought that Claude Choules was the last - but here is a thread regarding Borodino veterans - one was apparently 123 years old.

http://www.historum....r-veterans.html

Roxy

[Mark Hone]

I'm dubious about this. The trouble is verifying men's ages when records are scarce and also establishing who and who is not a veteran (e.g do you only include those who saw active service? ). As any trawl through the internet will show you, the American Civil War threw up a whole slew of people claiming to be the last survivor, many of whose claims have either been conclusively debunked or are very dubious. A bit like the phoney 'SpecIal Forces' veterans you come across. The last verified veteran died in 1956, i.e. 90 years later after the event.

[Piorun]

hesmond, on 08 June 2011 - 08:26 PM, said:

This as been bugging me for some time ,and may evan be considerd very silly question .... but a few years ago i read an excellent book called Tatterd Banners ,its an account of the period pre Great War at the Imperial Russian court from a officer in the Russian Life Guard ,covers normal stuff ,Great war time in UK ,civil war , the murders of the royals ect and then in UK 1940s .

But in 1912 the officer is at the 100th anniversary of Boradino and is with the czar when they are introduced to 5/6 VETERANS from the battle ? one being a gunner officer the rest the usual russian pesant ,also included photographs and the gunner officer discussed events with the czar ! .Now this was either a huge con but i would not want to be old pesant caught makeing a fool of the czar ,Russian propagander ,but there were representives from France so you would not want to look stupid if caught out later ,or its true ?

The niggling question i ask my self is have all the Great War lads gone to soon ?i know we all here stories of all these old russians liveing to great ages but these blokes from Boradino were born in the 18th century hard life i would understand evan compared to soviet Russia ,so if some one can live to 120 ect and be alive in 1912 ,with all the morden  medical services good food ect why are all the old boys gone ?
The figures for service in the Great war is 70 million world wide ,Boridino 150,000+ .
Or out there some where in Africa , Russia ,Asia there an old boy ..... makes you think

In isolated pockets around the world, usually in rural communities, it is held that a very few people have lived to 115/120 or so. Given the lack of written birth documentation, it is virtually impossible to verify these claims and, given the common use of the same given names down through several generations, it is known that, on occasion, a son was mistaken for his father. Given also the strong tradition of oral history in rural communities up to relatively recent years, an outsider will have great difficulty differentiating between an eye-witness account and an account of the same events offered by the next generation. Antony

[dycer]

Possibly you should link this debate to the one about HMS Caroline,which is a Jutland survivor,and still has WW1 echoes,within her.
People who were born before WW1,and served,or were born during have gone.Even if a surviving veteran,of WW1, was discovered in four years time,what would it prove?Apart from his/her age.Because clearly age and memory will have dimmed their WW1 experience.
Forum threads are often thrown open,to discussing,photographs,of the time,i.e uniform,weapon,cap badge,etc.
In Britain we have a rich WW1 heritage,e.g. H.M.S Caroline,and the Kings Troop Royal Artillery.
We know the guns will go on forever as they have a current and future non violent ceremonial use but rather than finding a surviving WW1 veteran,should we not be trying to maintain WW1 ships and buildings,for the education of future generations?
George

[hesmond]

hi agree with your comment as so much in terms of ordinary buildings associated with the great war which have real echos of the past are so easily lost ,every time i return to East London so much is disapearing with no regard to its heritage ,ie all the old public houses dateing back to Victorian and earlier which must have held so many memories for returning veterans are now gone ,evan when i lived in the Medway Towns Rochester ,Chatham many of the pubs associated with the forces have been destroyed ,it was a shame when Paddys bar at Victoria Station was pulled down no excuses for that one as it was quite well known that it was a bar where many had there last pint in UK before France , i am also still stuned that the Turkes were allowed to scrap there Imperial German Cruiser in the 70s ,and that we allowed the steamer that landed the Lancashire fusiliers Sulva bay to be scraped in the 60s , and the MOD were allowed to pull down all the listed Victorian barracks seen in 1968 Charge of the Light Brigade , i am allways suprised that there are no plaques in many if the old Town halls in the UK stateing their use as recurting stations in the Great war ,many of the papers i see for men of East London and Essex state enlisted Stratford Town Hall and the old building is still there but no reconagtion ,not sure about Town Halls where some of the Pals enlisted though ,also in places such as Gravesend and Thurrock where the troop ships left not one mention or plan to only at Thurrock which has a display for the Empire Windrush in the 50s .

[hesmond]

One of the issues with the war between the states was the on going pension which carried over to the wife ! so it could be a good money earner for a very long time ,it also had a odd spin off in some very very old boys marrying more than  a few very young ladies i belive the last widow drew a pension in the 70s !

[dycer]

Hes,
   I don't know the current statistics for the British War Pensions Agency but from memory,when working in a different part of the same Department, it was still paying WW1 Widows and Orphans Pensions in the 1990's so presumably it may still be doing so today.
George

[Ron Clifton]

I believe that G B Jameson, one of the last British officers to die, got remarried at the age of 102, to a lady some 50 years his junior. She may well be in receipt of a widow's pension, though whether it is specifically a WW1 pension or the ordinary state pension I am not sure.

I doubt whether there are any orphans actually in receipt of a pension as such, though there may be a good few around still with us who are orphans from WW1.

Ron

[hesmond]

I assume to get the widows pension you would have to have been married at the time of death ? when i lived in Brentwood in Essex in the very early 90s one old peoples home had the ibelive RSM of Middlesex Rgt who was killed in 1914 ? widow the local WFA arranged for the Army to organise the colonel of i belive the Queens to dance with her on christmass 1991 as due to the war the 1914 regimental dinner was canceled ,article and photo was in Brentwood gazzette 1991 ,and belive it or not with in 2 months she died !

I would also assume that the orphans pension stopped when you reached 18/21 ? in fact my old next door neibour whos father was killed Jan 17 on the Somme KOSB rembers the man from the council calling in the 20s when mum had asked for an increase saying the boys has 2 pairs of shoes sell 1 and walked off !

[Ron Clifton]

Hello Hesmond

I don't know if the rules changed during the war, but according to the 1914 Pay Warrant pensions for orphans stopped when boys reached 14 and girls reached 16. In each case they could be extended up to 21 if the child was unable to support him/herself through some disability.

Ron

[hesmond]

Hello ,when he told me this i belive he was refering to the 1920s when this incedent happened ,he had asked me to find his fathers grave ,which we did and photographed ,sadly he told us due to the circumstances his mother was placed in she agred to marry the debt collector who kept on knocking at her door! ,he and his sister were treated very badly over the years by the new faimly ,and when at his mothers burial service his step brother said oh and your father was shot as a deserter ! which obviousley affected him ,but of course this was untrue and he was killed early one morning by German shell fire during their retreat to Hindenburg line ,just one of those stories that affected thousands of people in the aftermath of the war .

[truthergw]

There was a specific problem with ages of Russian peasants. Men were effectively conscripted for life into the Tsar's army. When the recruiting officer called at a farm or isolated village, there was much adjusting of birthdates to claim exemption. When old age pensions were introduced in Soviet times, people who applied without reliable documentation had to be taken at their word with perhaps a little grease for the Hetman to verify their eligibility.

[hesmond]

And am still wondering if not only some ex Askri will turn up in 2014 ,but will we also ex pancho villa lads from 1916?

[dycer]

To be honest, I have real problems with this suggestion,but mean no disrespect to the originator.
The immediate WW1 impact has gone unless the Russians,Chinese,etc find a living "veteran".I'll skate over politics,etc.
As the Nephew,through accident of birth, of two WW1 British(or should I say Scots to assert their independence)Soldiers, who were killed in the conflict I claim no allegiance.
i.e.there is no way I'm going to attend any WW1 Anniversary event,"sporting" their Medals.
However,if the local(English) Primary School,asks to borrow "them",for children's education that's a different matter.
George