7 replies to this topic

[icox67]

My grandfather landed in France as part of the 5th Scottish Rifles on 5th November 1914. He had just turned 17.

Does anyone have any idea how long his period of training may have been, before he was sent overseas, as I cannot find his service record, to verify his enlistment date, but would not imagine it was before the outbreak of war. I know that the 5th Bn was formed in Aug 1914, which implies only 3 months training.

(I am curious, as his brothers joined up (separate regiment, the Gordons) on 1st September 1914, but were not sent overseas until May 1915, implying that they received almost 9 months of training in UK before being sent overseas.

Thanks. Iain

[John Duncan]

Hi Iain

The 1/5th was a TF (Territorial) unit and therefore had been in training and annual camp prior to the war,they were mobilised on the outbreak of war,not formed.

A number of TF units went out around this time including the 8th Royal Scots and London Scottish,they were in a better state of readiness than the New Army men.

John

[kenf48]

Acknowledging the comments above, it is quite possible your grandfather enlisted in the TF as they accepted young men at 17.   You don't say how old his brothers were but in 1914 New Army recruits should have been 19 (accepting there were many under age soldiers).  It is quite possible the recruiters in Glasgow were playing fairly and pointed him towards the TF, or he looked so young even they could not justify his recruitment.
The application for the TF in 1914 had no reference to age although strictly speaking he should have gone to 2nd line unit (i.e. the 2/5th) for service at home until he was 19.

However it appears there was all sorts of skullduggery taking place in desperation to bring the 1st line TF Battalions up to strength for posting overseas (many of the older members in some Regiments had declined to sign the Imperial Service Obligation).  It is therefore entirely possible as a young fit man and no doubt keen to enter the fray when he reported for duty he was 'volunteered' into the ranks of the 1/5th to swell their numbers and sent overseas with a minimum amount of training.  Another possibility is that his parents gave their consent which meant he could go overseas legitimately with his Bn.

While many of these under age soldiers distinguished themselves, sadly a number proved to be a liability, no doubt in part to the lack of training you refer to, and were eventually sent home as the war progressed.

Of course this is only one scenario and he may as suggested have been in the TF prior to August 1914, but given your description and his age this seems a more likely route.

[Incidentally after conscription men were sent overseas with as little as eight weeks training - arguably it wasn't so much the training of the individual soldier as the organisation of the New Army Battalions that meant the first of them did not go overseas until early 1915.]

Ken

[John Duncan]

Hi Ken

The TF could and did accept lads as young as 14,many of thwm went overseas with their unit. If you visit the Boy soldier pages on my website you can read about James Marchbank he turned 14 on June 1914 and was in France November 4th. There were a few more like him, he survived the war,awarded the MM and died in 1975.

John

[kenf48]

Hi John

Interesting article and yes, under age soldiers went overseas with the TF, but  the Army's own regulations in 1914 were that a soldier should not be posted overseas until he had attained the age of 19 (hence the difference in recruitment ages in 1914  for the Regular Army (18) and New Army (19) because the latter were intended to serve overseas more or less from enlistment.

The Territorial Force  regulations, on the other hand, allowed for the recruitment of  men (and boys) aged 17 to 35 for a period of four years initial service.  The fact no declaration of age was required or young men tried to get round the rules providing examples of recruits as young as 14 does not change that fact.

As I said I proposed an alternative scenario based on the OP assertion that he did not imagine his grandfather would have joined up before August 1914.  There are many documented cases of young men turned down for recruitment who got round the regulations  by joining the TF. (See van Emden's 'Boy Soldiers of the Great War')

However, where research has been carried out on the age of pre war recruits  as in this thesis from the WW1 Study Centre http://etheses.bham....nton_Thesis.pdf
the average age was much higher, younger recruits only being accepted in 1913/1914 the increase in "seventeen" year olds is quite striking!  They were still bound by the regulation that they should not be sent overseas until aged 19 the fact they were was a particular problem for the TF because there was so much haste to get the Battalions up to strength when it was realised the older men were going to stick by their conditions and were not prepared to serve overseas.

I fully accept there were many exceptions to this rule but that does not mean to say they were right and a 14 year old, or even a 16 year old as the the age given for the subject of the post should not, according to the Regulations have been serving in the TF although an exception might have been made with parental consent.  I also accept the County Associations were to a large extent self governing but I would be interested to see evidence that the TF, even in Scotland, knowingly recruited boys as young as 14 legitimately.

Ken

[icox67]

Nice to have stimulated some discussion on this. Fore background, my grandfather's brothers were aged 19 and 14 (!) on 1st Sept 1914, when they enlisted in 8th (Service) Bn Gordon Highlanders.
(The brother who was 14 was later discharged in 1916, for being under 17. He had lied on his attestation document, stating he was 19).

I have no idea why the two brothers joined a different regiment entirely form my grandfather, who was 17 in late 1914,and joined the Scottish Rifles. I have wondered if his (known) long-term membership of the Boys Brigade may have played a part in this, as they have rather a military-style structure ,and could have directed him towards early enlistment, or towards a particular regiment. Any thoughts?

[John Duncan]

Its possible the BB's had an officer who was ex-army or possibly a TF officer. This was how the lad I mentioned James Marchbank came to join the 8th RS,the Scoutmaster was ex Indian Army and paid for a lot of the bugles and drums then encouraged the lads to join up.

There a few very young (14) drummers / buglers on the strength,forumite Grumpy in a previous topic makes mention of this,they were permitted 1 or 2% of boys in the Battalion,which they seem to have exploited to bolster numbers before going overseas. Appreciate some of this has already been covered in previous posts but can't read them whilst posting as using my phone. There is a 30 minute interview with Pte Marchbank on my website,he can probably explain better than me how he ended up in France.

John

Edit
Incidentaly I think it was morally indefencable to send these young lads to war,however attitudes were different then and their parents seem to have full agreement with their posting. This changed fairly rapidly as the war progressed. My Grandfather was forbidden by my GGranfather to enlist until 1915 when he turned 19.

[dycer]

kenf48, on 15 June 2011 - 05:05 PM, said:

Hi John

Interesting article and yes, under age soldiers went overseas with the TF, but  the Army's own regulations in 1914 were that a soldier should not be posted overseas until he had attained the age of 19 (hence the difference in recruitment ages in 1914  for the Regular Army (18) and New Army (19) because the latter were intended to serve overseas more or less from enlistment.

The Territorial Force  regulations, on the other hand, allowed for the recruitment of  men (and boys) aged 17 to 35 for a period of four years initial service.  The fact no declaration of age was required or young men tried to get round the rules providing examples of recruits as young as 14 does not change that fact.

As I said I proposed an alternative scenario based on the OP assertion that he did not imagine his grandfather would have joined up before August 1914.  There are many documented cases of young men turned down for recruitment who got round the regulations  by joining the TF. (See van Emden's 'Boy Soldiers of the Great War')

However, where research has been carried out on the age of pre war recruits  as in this thesis from the WW1 Study Centre http://etheses.bham....nton_Thesis.pdf
the average age was much higher, younger recruits only being accepted in 1913/1914 the increase in "seventeen" year olds is quite striking!  They were still bound by the regulation that they should not be sent overseas until aged 19 the fact they were was a particular problem for the TF because there was so much haste to get the Battalions up to strength when it was realised the older men were going to stick by their conditions and were not prepared to serve overseas.

I fully accept there were many exceptions to this rule but that does not mean to say they were right and a 14 year old, or even a 16 year old as the the age given for the subject of the post should not, according to the Regulations have been serving in the TF although an exception might have been made with parental consent.  I also accept the County Associations were to a large extent self governing but I would be interested to see evidence that the TF, even in Scotland, knowingly recruited boys as young as 14 legitimately.

Ken

Ken,
   There seems to have been a practice within, at least, the 8th Royal Scots and its pre-runner 7th Volunteer Battalion Royal Scots to accept young recruits.
   Two examples.
   George Souness born July 1894,enlisted early 1907, per his Volunteer Battalion Number and his Brother,John,born 19 November 1896,enlisted 1909, per his Number.Both Brothers landed in France on 5 November 1914,per their MICs,with John dying of wounds on 29 January 1915.
   Their Father was a(rifle)Range Keeper at the time of their births,per their Birth Certificates,and continued in this employment for some years afterwards,at least until 1900,per my Father's Birth Certificate,but had left this employment by the time of John's death,per his obituary.
George