12 replies to this topic

[digger yexley]

Hi everyone,recently on ebay a chap was selling a memorial plaque to a July 1st casualty supposedly a unique name but on checking CWGC at least one other of the same name(possibly more) were killed on that day when i pointed this out he said it was extremely unlikely that the plaque would have been issued to them because they were Australian and the chances of their plaques ending up in the uk were remote,whereby i made the point that it was very likely that a plaque to an "Australian" could end up in Britain as the serviceman could have emigrated and his next of kin were resident in uk.He dismissed this out of hand.As usual i have forgotten the statistic i once read of the percentage of British born men and those born in Australia to uk born parents who served in th AIF but im pretty sure it was around the 50% mark,am i completely wrong?Thanks all.

[headgardener]

No, the vendor is completely wrong and you are completely right in your doubts about ascribing this plaque to a British casualty on the basis that it is unlikely that a plaque to an Australian would be found in the UK.  I have found ANZAC plaques (and CEF, of course, and Indian army, etc) here in the UK.

He's just trying to claim his plaque is unique when it probably isn't.  If it doesn't have the scroll the he can't definitively state its provenance.

[Ron Clifton]

Hello digger

If he really was a casualty of 1 July 1916 on the Somme (and how would the vendor know this?) he is most unlikely to be a member of the AIF, whose units only reached France later that month. He may of course have died elsewhere on that day but the CWGC entry should indicate at least the theatre of operations. It is also just possible that he was an Aussie who joined a British unit.

The proportion of British-born in the AIF was, I believe, somewhere between 40% and 50%.

Otherwise, I agree with headgardener. Be sceptical!

Ron

[Blackblue]

It varied considerably per battalion and I don't believe there is a definitive figure. At the start of the war it was around the 30% mark of the original force, but reduced markedly as the war went on...finishing below 20%.

Rgds

Tim D

[Martin G]

Hello  - I just found this old thread....

Does anyone know of the hard numbers of the AIF who were

1. Born in Australia?
2. Born outside Australia?
3. Born in Britain?

Preferably the actual numbers and/or the ratios. If there is any provenance for the figures such as Govt sources, Australian War Memorial etc that would be even more useful. ... the thread above suggests 50%, 40%, 30% and 20% which indicates there is an extremely wide range of estimates. I would be amazed if someone hasn't researched this already so I am curious how the estimates could vary so much over a base of well over 400,000....how could the estimates vary from 200,000 to 80,000?.  

I am sure it varied over the period of the War, and would suspect that 1914-15 saw a higher proportion of the British diaspora signing up for the AIF, the numbers of which would have slowly diminished as the war progressed. Also if anyone knows of the numbers for Gallipoli (an area of particular interest) that would also be very gratefully received.

I would very politely ask if respondents could refrain from pure guesswork as I am more than capable of guessing the wrong number myself (I have no idea by the way).

Thanks   MG

[Crunchy]

My study of the embarkation rolls of eight battalions of the 1st Australian Division in 1914 show between 24% and 28% listed their NOK as residing in the UK, and about 2% to 3% were born elsewhere outside Australia. To this must be added those who were born in the UK but, who as children, emigrated to Australia with their parents.

The figure quoted above of 40% to 50% of the AIF being British born is too high, and there is no source I have seen that quotes such a high precentage.

Also Australian units began arriving in France in March 1916 not July.  By 1st July the 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th and 5th Australian Divisions were in France. The 3rd was in the UK.

Regards
Chris

[SPOF]

Martin

http://mappingouranzacs.naa.gov.au/ shows just over 59,000 men who enlisted were born in Great Britain and Ireland.

Glen

[Martin G]

Crunchy, on 03 June 2012 - 11:03 AM, said:

My study of the embarkation rolls of eight battalions of the 1st Australian Division in 1914 show between 24% and 28% listed their NOK as residing in the UK, and about 2% to 3% were born elsewhere outside Australia. To this must be added those who were born in the UK but, who as children, emigrated to Australia with their parents.

The figure quoted above of 40% to 50% of the AIF being British born is too high, and there is no source I have seen that quotes such a high precentage.

Also Australian units began arriving in France in March 1916 not July.  By 1st July the 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th and 5th Australian Divisions were in France. The 3rd was in the UK.

Regards
Chris

Chris. Excellent. I am most grateful for this. Regards MG

[Martin G]

SPOF, on 03 June 2012 - 12:20 PM, said:

Martin

http://mappingouranzacs.naa.gov.au/ shows just over 59,000 men who enlisted were born in Great Britain and Ireland.

Glen

Glen Thanks. I suspect this has the answer but I can't make sense of the website....any pointers? MG

[Fedelmar]

On the opposite side of the coin I can tell you now that English plaques have ended up in Australia and I have proof of that.

[frev]

Martin G, on 03 June 2012 - 10:46 AM, said:

Hello  - I just found this old thread....

Does anyone know of the hard numbers of the AIF who were

1. Born in Australia?
2. Born outside Australia?
3. Born in Britain?

Preferably the actual numbers and/or the ratios. If there is any provenance for the figures such as Govt sources, Australian War Memorial etc that would be even more useful. ... the thread above suggests 50%, 40%, 30% and 20% which indicates there is an extremely wide range of estimates. I would be amazed if someone hasn't researched this already so I am curious how the estimates could vary so much over a base of well over 400,000....how could the estimates vary from 200,000 to 80,000?.  

I am sure it varied over the period of the War, and would suspect that 1914-15 saw a higher proportion of the British diaspora signing up for the AIF, the numbers of which would have slowly diminished as the war progressed. Also if anyone knows of the numbers for Gallipoli (an area of particular interest) that would also be very gratefully received.

I would very politely ask if respondents could refrain from pure guesswork as I am more than capable of guessing the wrong number myself (I have no idea by the way).

Thanks   MG

Martin

Scroll to the last post (#9) in the following link http://1914-1918.inv...howtopic=179332 for an interesting article on the birth numbers.

Cheers, Frev

[CGM]

Hello Martin,

Using Mapping our Anzacs:

This website allows you to start from a country of birth and work right through to pinpointing the town or village they were born in and then open their service records.

Using the UK as an example:

Open the website, click on the home page, click on the small map of the UK and Ireland.
You will see the number who were born in each country. These figures add up to the just over 59,000 which SPOF quoted in #7.

Clicking on any of these figures allows you to see the distribution of those figures across that particular country.
Each blue flag opens up a list of towns or villages in that area.

Selecting a location from the list will take you the names of all those who were born in that town or village (actually, to be completely accurate, who stated that they were born there).

Clicking on one of those names will take you straight to their service records.

CGM

[Martin G]

frev, on 04 June 2012 - 03:28 AM, said:

Martin

Scroll to the last post (#9) in the following link http://1914-1918.inv...howtopic=179332 for an interesting article on the birth numbers.

Cheers, Frev

Frev - this is excellent, and just the sort of thing I was looking for...Many thanks.

CGM, on 04 June 2012 - 05:30 AM, said:

Hello Martin,

Using Mapping our Anzacs:

This website allows you to start from a country of birth and work right through to pinpointing the town or village they were born in and then open their service records.

Using the UK as an example:

Open the website, click on the home page, click on the small map of the UK and Ireland.
You will see the number who were born in each country. These figures add up to the just over 59,000 which SPOF quoted in #7.

Clicking on any of these figures allows you to see the distribution of those figures across that particular country.
Each blue flag opens up a list of towns or villages in that area.

Selecting a location from the list will take you the names of all those who were born in that town or village (actually, to be completely accurate, who stated that they were born there).

Clicking on one of those names will take you straight to their service records.

CGM

CGM - thanks for the instruction. Extremely helpful. Thankyou.

Edit: From the figures provided on the website, the totals come to 347,505. The comments indicate this is the total for those men and women whose place of birth was known. According to Statistics of the Military Effort of the British Empire During the Great War 1914-1920 (War Office March 1922)  - page 759 'Australia's Contribution'  it records:

"Since the opening of the war Australia has mobilized, enlisted or trained 412,953 military and 3,856 naval men, making a total of 416,809 or nearly one twelfth of its population. By far the greater part of this, the Australian Force i.e. 331,781 men was sent abroad in the opposite hemisphere for active service".


This suggests

1. Some 69,304 men (16.7%) had no recorded place of birth.  
2. Some 17.1% of men whose place of birth was known were born in the British Isles. Note this is not 17.1% of all Australia's servicemen given 16.7% had no recorded place of birth.

Regards. MG