418 replies to this topic

[auchonvillerssomme]

Erfurt manufactured, Wilhelm II, Bayonet M1898.

[shippingsteel]

That was easy - how about the sub-type and unit/regiment.?  

Cheers, S>S

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[TRAJAN]

Bit late getting on today... I assume/guess 161st Regiment something something... And its been transformed into a n.Arte - but without flashguard? And so a 'transitional'?

Trajan

PS: Thank for the stud measurements - will check mine later but i suspect larger than the nominal 15.5 millimetres.

[auchonvillerssomme]

Quillback. Regiment 161 12 Kompagnie, piece number 23.

[TRAJAN]

Thanks Auchon - but no flashguard and no 'ears'? A 'transitional'?

Trajan

[auchonvillerssomme]

Is it not just alter art?

[shippingsteel]

auchonvillerssomme, on 13 August 2011 - 04:17 PM, said:

Is it not just alter art?

Correct - this is the early version with the one-piece grips - commonly referred to as the 'alter Art' or old pattern. These weren't produced for very long.
This style of timber grip was found to be vulnerable to cracking and splitting along the thinner underside, so was replaced by the new pattern in 1902.
The S98 bayonet never featured the high ears, always the low eared style, and is very seldom found with the flashguard added (done to suit the Kar98)

Cheers, S>S

[shippingsteel]

That last one seemed just TOO easy (well done Mick) .... so I've dug around to find something a little harder. Nothing like a challenge.!   
This one should pull you up for a bit longer, and we'll have to look at things from a different perspective ie. some "reverse engineering".!
OK so here is the rifle, there it shows the lug for attaching the bayonet, so WHICH bayonet should we be looking for as the suitable match.?

Cheers, S>S

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[auchonvillerssomme]

As it is side fitting then I would guess it is adapted to fit an earlier bayonet with a muzzle ring M1871.

[shippingsteel]

Yes, earlier bayonet with a muzzle ring .... but this one's not a German rifle.
This method of attachment is normally referred to as the "bar-on-band" style, which is pretty self-explanatory really.

Cheers, S>S

[Garron]

Thats a Martini-Metford isnt it? Id say P1860, P1879 and P1887 it cant use a socket bayonet as its got a ramp front sight.

Gaz

[auchonvillerssomme]

Well in my defence I was checking it out on my blackberry, my other idea was that it was a M1891 Mosin Nagant. I bow to others knowledge about rifles.

[shippingsteel]

Garron, on 14 August 2011 - 01:13 PM, said:

Thats a Martini-Metford isnt it? Id say P1860, P1879 and P1887 it cant use a socket bayonet as its got a ramp front sight.

Thats right Gaz, (I thought you might be onto this one.!) yes its the Martini-Metford MkII, a conversion of the Martini-Henry rechambered to .303 calibre.
This rifle like the latter Martini-Henry versions took the P1887 bayonet. I don't think the other two you mentioned would fit without a bushed muzzle-ring.

Cheers, S>S

[Garron]

If it wasn't for the clearing rod I would still be guessing as to what type of Martini. Each mark had a different pattern rod. Nice one, certainly was a challenge, really made the think, that was something different. I can't say I've ever seen a M-M in the flesh.

I'm not sure either, I read somewhere that the P1860 and P1879 were used on the M-H so I included them.

Gaz

[shippingsteel]

So here's another one .... you know the drill - which bayonet, which rifle, which country, or all the above.?

Cheers, S>S

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[TRAJAN]

shippingsteel, on 13 August 2011 - 10:58 PM, said:

Correct - this is the early version with the one-piece grips - commonly referred to as the 'alter Art' or old pattern. These weren't produced for very long.
This style of timber grip was found to be vulnerable to cracking and splitting along the thinner underside, so was replaced by the new pattern in 1902.
The S98 bayonet never featured the high ears, always the low eared style, and is very seldom found with the flashguard added (done to suit the Kar98)

Cheers, S>S

Thanks - another bit of progress on the learning curve!

Trajan

[TRAJAN]

USA Model 1905 bayonet for a Garand rifle???

Trajan

[shippingsteel]

TRAJAN, on 15 August 2011 - 07:40 AM, said:

USA Model 1905 bayonet for a Garand rifle???

Trajan, 'two outta three aint bad'.! Yes its a US M1905 bayonet, but they were not made for the Garand .... well not initially anyway.
The M1 Garand rifle was developed later in the interwar period, and many of the early M1905 bayonets were later converted/shortened to suit during WW2.
The M1905 bayonet was originally made for the M1903 Springfield rifle, which was one of the primary weapons for the American servicemen during the GW.
This particular bayonet is probably the 'premier' example in my collection, and is marked to a Marine Corps garrison that guarded a wartime Naval Base.

Cheers, S>S

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[TRAJAN]

It was that little knob-type thingy beneath the grip that alerted me...  I have seen it on Danish bayonets that were said to be for the Garand so next step was to assume it was a US of A product and all I could find was talk of a 1905 bayonet - had no idea the Garand was an interwar product...!!! No idea what that knob does or how it works though as I have never seen one of these bayonets on a rifle...

Trajan

PS: S>S, thought you'd like to know - found a P1888 in Ankara! Dated 11/96, with usual inspection marks and non-matching serial numbers on pommel and scabbard throat but sadly nowt else, e.g., no regimental markings.

[shippingsteel]

TRAJAN, on 15 August 2011 - 10:31 AM, said:

It was that little knob-type thingy beneath the grip that alerted me...  No idea what that knob does or how it works though ...

That press button operates the release catch mechanism for attaching the bayonet to the rifle - also for securing the bayonet into its scabbard.

Trajan, better put some of that local knowledge to use.! What do you think of this next one - note the intricate decoration that has been applied.?
Do you have any ideas on what all the different inspection markings mean on these ie. the proliferation of different symbols, crescents and stars.?

Cheers, S>S

 Turk.jpg   54.16K   1 downloads

[TRAJAN]

OK, here goes... It looks like a Turkish M 1890, BUT the muzzle ring is too low... So it's an 1887? (Never seen one of those but all the Turkish bayonets I have seen from 1890 to the 1930's - including my single Turkish ersatz - all have a higher muzzle ring!)

On more secure grounds now... The five pointed star on the pommel is odd to me: the three 1890's I have (one of them shortened) all have a six-pointed star. The correct form of the Turkish star is a five-pointed one, as on yours - guess somebody in Germany got it wrong with the 1890's? There should be a crescent on the other side of the pommel to match the star plus the Tughra cipher of Abdul Hamid II. Official acceptance marks.

The other pommel mark is interesting and I don't know what it is - I only have a bad stamping showing the bottom part, like an angular '8', on my two unshortened 1890's (may have been ground-off from the shortened one?).

I'll make a very wild guess that yours is a 'Mauser'-marked bayonet: one of my three is a Saeur and Sohn and it has a five-pointed star on the crossguard but my two other 1890's, both Mauser's, do not have this. Incidentally, does the blade-side face of the quillion/crossguard have a star over a heart-shape? My 1890's all have it but I don't know what it means...

As for the ring-and-dot markings on the grip, I guess somebody got bored one day!

How am I doing?

Trajan

[shippingsteel]

TRAJAN, on 16 August 2011 - 06:28 AM, said:

OK, here goes... It looks like a Turkish M 1890, BUT the muzzle ring is too low... So it's an 1887? (Never seen one of those but all the Turkish bayonets I have seen from 1890 to the 1930's - including my single Turkish ersatz - all have a higher muzzle ring!)

On more secure grounds now... The five pointed star on the pommel is odd to me: the three 1890's I have (one of them shortened) all have a six-pointed star. The correct form of the Turkish star is a five-pointed one, as on yours - guess somebody in Germany got it wrong with the 1890's? There should be a crescent on the other side of the pommel to match the star plus the Tughra cipher of Abdul Hamid II. Official acceptance marks.

The other pommel mark is interesting and I don't know what it is - I only have a bad stamping showing the bottom part, like an angular '8', on my two unshortened 1890's (may have been ground-off from the shortened one?).

I'll make a very wild guess that yours is a 'Mauser'-marked bayonet: one of my three is a Saeur and Sohn and it has a five-pointed star on the crossguard but my two other 1890's, both Mauser's, do not have this. Incidentally, does the blade-side face of the quillion/crossguard have a star over a heart-shape? My 1890's all have it but I don't know what it means...

Doing pretty well I think - you're right its a M1887 bayonet.! These used the "bar-on-band" style of side attachment which is why they have a lower muzzle ring.
All the later Turkish bayonets had a highset muzzle ring because their Mauser supplied rifles had the bayonet bar situated on the underside of the front band.

This one has got a lot of markings on it. The five pointed star as you saw on the pommel is matched with the crescent on the other side, but no Tughra cypher.
The spine of the blade is marked with a six pointed star and crescent, and it also has the star over 'heart shape thingy' you mentioned on front of the crossguard.

This bayonet is marked as being made by Weyersberg Kirschbaum & Cie in the year of 1306, so making it one of the latest of these made ie. a 1889/90 vintage.
I'm not that sure about your 'Mauser as maker' theory as I have never heard of them making any bayonets for the Turks, and the markings on the rifles don't match.

I have found some more of these Turkish symbols that are also commonly found on the Mauser rifles. These are a bit more clear so perhaps you could take a look.?

Cheers, S>S

 WKC maker.jpg   14.39K   0 downloads  Turk symbols.jpg   25.11K   0 downloads

[TRAJAN]

Happy to be at least part right! The 1887 is pretty rare isn't it? interseting it has no Tughra cypher but the other marks are fine - but I still find it odd that some of these Turkish bayonets have a five-pointed star and others a six-pointed one - and some have both!

I accept your questioning of my 'Mauser as [bayonet] maker' theory, especially as - you say - there seems to be no reference to them making any bayonets for the Turks, and - again as you say - 'the markings on the rifles don't match' the ones on the bayonet (nor [re: a post elsewhere] do the ones I have identified seem to match the Mauser cartridge markings!). This is something I must try to get sorted out properly with my friendly Osmanli-wise post-grads before rather than after a few beers!

That row of markings is fun (reproduced below) - wonder what some of them mean? The nice one for me is the first one, before the six-pointed star, as this is clearly the full version of what you and I have on the pommels. I'll certainly try and find out what they are.

Trajan

PS: looking forward to next challenge - at least while the univ. vacation lasts!

Attached Files

•  mauser rifle markings.jpg   25.11K   0 downloads

[shippingsteel]

TRAJAN, on 16 August 2011 - 09:34 AM, said:

That row of markings is fun - wonder what some of them mean? The nice one for me is the first one, before the six-pointed star ...

Yeah thats my favourite too .... (somehow reminds me of a discarded bikini top.!  )  .... do you see them often in Turkey.?  

Cheers, S>S

[TRAJAN]

shippingsteel, on 16 August 2011 - 09:47 AM, said:

Yeah thats my favourite too .... (somehow reminds me of a discarded bikini top.!  )  .... do you see them often in Turkey.?  

Cheers, S>S

Will try to check these markings. I take it these are on a Mauser rifle? An 1887, 1890 or 1903? - or whatever!

Trajan

Love the analogy! In fact TWO sets of discarded bikini tops - which are indeed reasonably common at certain places on the south coast but not so just at the moment (Ramadam...!!!).