418 replies to this topic

[sawdoc34]

S/S,
thanks for the info mate, have a couple of Indian P1903 conversions/reworks, they have IG inspectors marks.

Do Indian P1888s mk3s usually have the same IG marks?

Off to kip now, all this trawlin the net for info that wasnt there has taken its toll,

Cheers ( S/S for not sending me on a wild goose chase tonight),
Aleck

[TRAJAN]

sawdoc34, on 12 April 2012 - 03:59 PM, said:

... Sanderson never made P1913 bayonets mate...

Fingers and thumbs there - or was it Turkish P 1913's on my mind???!!!!

Tragic Trajan

EDIT: Let me see if the weekend brings spare time to catch up on this! OH is taking the nippers out tomorrow pm but I still have Monday's classes to prepare!

[Garron]

Now then Gents opinions please
 1919Lithgow.JPG   99.45K   7 downloads


Someone had just paid £325 for this

[shippingsteel]

Garron, on 13 April 2012 - 06:38 PM, said:

Now then Gents opinions please .... Someone had just paid £325 for this

As they say, "there is one born every minute" (fools that is) ... and thats why you will continue to see reproductions such as this being produced for sale.
The purchaser would have to be a complete newbie with absolutely no idea, as the bayonet and markings are wrong on so many levels its just ridiculous.

I think its probably been made as a reproduction with so many 'obvious' tells, but then you can't stop people passing them on as genuine if they don't know.
And then you get buyers who don't know the difference either (so I guess they will be learning the hard way) its a lot of money to pay out for just a 'replica'.!

Cheers, S>S

[sawdoc34]

Beejesus, thats taking the piss for an obvious fake, someone will be laughing their way all the way to the bank but you have to feel sorry for the poor sod who paid that much for it.

S/S,
look what I found whilst giving the last 2 mk3s a clean (both sandersons, other is an enfield), seems like it has a crown/cypher on it after all.

Quick question, seeing as I have 2 sanderson P1888 mk3s, I know of an American collector that is after 1 of these  but not sure of the prices. What do you think a fair price would be with the scabbard?

Cheers,
Aleck

[Garron]

I wont say where it came from ect but I'm not surprised its dodgy, I burst out laughing when I first saw it. Thought you gentlemen would enjoy a laugh.

[shippingsteel]

sawdoc34, on 15 April 2012 - 10:37 AM, said:

S/S, look what I found whilst giving the last 2 mk3s a clean (both sandersons, other is an enfield), seems like it has a crown/cypher on it after all.

Thats good to know, and having the two both with similar dates is very interesting. Seems that Sanderson was busy making these Mk.IIIs around that time.
As I said before Skennerton has Enfield making 65,000 of these, but that contractors only made a few.? The contractors numbers were harder to determine.

I wouldn't really like to say on a price, its the same old problem of rarity versus condition - how can you judge.? I think only the keen buyer can make that call.!
I do know that any P'88s are relatively cheap in the States and they aren't that particularly sought after. I buy many from there and most times in good condition.
It also depends on the condition of the scabbard - a really nice scabbard would make quite a difference. I think around about $150 might be a 'ball-park' figure.?

Cheers, S>S

[shippingsteel]

Garron, on 15 April 2012 - 11:26 AM, said:

I wont say where it came from ect but I'm not surprised its dodgy, I burst out laughing when I first saw it. Thought you gentlemen would enjoy a laugh.

I'll tell you one thing for certain Gaz - I definitely wasn't laughing.   I hate seeing any of these repros catch people out, and problem is they are always getting better.!
Put a reasonable set of markings on that, and with that stippled 'aged' look, it would probably catch a lot more people than you think. Its still very crude but looks effective.

Cheers, S>S

[sawdoc34]

Thanks for the info S/S, wonder which other makers were contracted for these?
Know oldsmithy has a mole, I have sandersons & enfield.
Did Chapman make bayonets before the P03s?

Gaz, recognosed the background in the pics, checked their website, lo & behold, there was the offending bayonet. Have never dealt with the seller before but thought they were reputable military archiologist types until now, will def have to double check if ever consider buying from them now, thanks for the heads up mate   

Cheers,
Aleck

[Garron]

I meant a laugh as in the markings, sadly its people who are duped into buying them that fuels the manufacture of them. They are only going to get better sadly.

Aleck, i've seen a few dubious 'relics' on there but didn't want to name them for legal reasons just incase. I'm glad you spotted their background.

[TRAJAN]

Garron, on 15 April 2012 - 12:38 PM, said:

...I'm glad you spotted their background.

And there was I, thinking (some weeks ago), "Hmmm., why don't I get one of those nice metric-gridded cutting mats to use when photographing bayonets? Easier than stretching the metal tape alongside"...

I suppose I could use an imperial one?

Trajan

[shippingsteel]

TRAJAN, on 15 April 2012 - 05:33 PM, said:

And there was I, thinking (some weeks ago), "Hmmm., why don't I get one of those nice metric-gridded cutting mats to use when photographing bayonets ...

Hey Trajan, I reckon you might get the background thrown in with every purchase ... surely you must get something to go with that expensive pricetag.!!

Cheers, S>S

[Llewis]

 star A side.jpg   94.93K   0 downloads

Gentlemen:


I have this bayonet and was wondering if any of you might be able to help me interpret its markings.
I will  have more images in a few days.
Also hidden under the wood grips is the "A" within the seven sided star. There are several other letters as well.

Thank you

[Llewis]

 1907 side.jpg   95.44K   2 downloads

Here is the other side markings.

Llewis

[shippingsteel]

Llewis, on 23 April 2012 - 03:46 AM, said:

I have this bayonet and was wondering if any of you might be able to help me interpret its markings.

Those are nice early Lithgow markings, which are indicating a P1907 bayonet made in Australia in 1915 at the Lithgow Small Arms Factory, NSW.
The stars and shields are inspection marks and proofs that were added during the manufacturing process, while the X shows it passed the bend test.
If this bayonet still has the hooked quillon intact, then it is worth quite a bit of money to Aust. collectors. I look forward to seeing the rest of the pictures.

Cheers, S>S

[Llewis]

shippingsteel, on 23 April 2012 - 04:58 AM, said:

Those are nice early Lithgow markings, which are indicating a P1907 bayonet made in Australia in 1915 at the Lithgow Small Arms Factory, NSW.
The stars and shields are inspection marks and proofs that were added during the manufacturing process, while the X shows it passed the bend test.
If this bayonet still has the hooked quillon intact, then it is worth quite a bit of money to Aust. collectors. I look forward to seeing the rest of the pictures.

Cheers, S>S

Thanks for the information.
Some more photos hopefully by tomorrow (a neighbour has the good camera)


How many hooked bayonets were made in this factory in 1915?
Or, rather, how rare are the hooked ones of any date?

L

[Llewis]

 Bayonet left hook.jpg   79K   2 downloads  Bayonet left hook.jpg   79K   2 downloads  Bayonet left hook.jpg   79K   2 downloads  Bayonet left hook.jpg   79K   2 downloads

Llewis, on 23 April 2012 - 09:07 PM, said:

Thanks for the information.
Some more photos hopefully by tomorrow (a neighbour has the good camera)


How many hooked bayonets were made in this factory in 1915?
Or, rather, how rare are the hooked ones of any date?

L

[Llewis]

Whoops sorry guys. I guess one should not keep pressing the attach button when nothing appears to be happening.

Here are a few more images. Hope for t he best.

Llewis


This shot shows the "A" within seven sided star on the inside of each wood grip.
 Bayonet inside handles sm .jpg   84.64K   0 downloads

[Llewis]

One from end on.

 Bayonet end .jpg   83.75K   0 downloads

[Llewis]

This shot shows the "A" within seven sided star on the inside of each wood grip.
 Bayonet inside handles sm .jpg   84.64K   0 downloads
[/quote]

Just above the star another mark appears. Although not so clear in this image it seems to be a Roman Numeral XII

[smleenfield]

Garron, on 13 April 2012 - 06:38 PM, said:

Now then Gents opinions please
1919Lithgow.JPG


Someone had just paid £325 for this

My info on these was they were movie props from the movie Gallipoli. I sold over three dozen on Ebay and at gunshows but always made it very clear that they were not even close to the real thing. I see them still show up on ebay from time to time and will advise the seller what they are actually selling. Most have revised their listings but some will still try to sell them as the real thing.

[Llewis]

And with scabbard.

 Bayonet in scabbard .jpg   63.43K   0 downloads

[shippingsteel]

Llewis, on 24 April 2012 - 02:57 AM, said:

This shot shows the "A" within seven sided star on the inside of each wood grip.
Just above the star another mark appears. Although not so clear in this image it seems to be a Roman Numeral XII

Nice looking bayonet and the markings all look correct. Each inspector had their own separate number shown as the Roman numeral under the Star symbol.
The Lithgow hook quillon bayonets are very scarce as not a lot were made, and many were later modified in service, where the hook was cut and ground off.

Unfortunately the finish on your bayonet is non-existent, as these were originally blued on the handle and crossguard - it looks buffed to within an inch of its life.
The scabbard is also of later vintage, circa WW2 with the large round stud. But in saying that the bayonet itself would still be worth a quite considerable amount.

Cheers, S>S

[Llewis]

shippingsteel, on 24 April 2012 - 05:15 AM, said:

Nice looking bayonet and the markings all look correct. Each inspector had their own separate number shown as the Roman numeral under the Star symbol.
The Lithgow hook quillon bayonets are very scarce as not a lot were made, and many were later modified in service, where the hook was cut and ground off.

Unfortunately the finish on your bayonet is non-existent, as these were originally blued on the handle and crossguard - it looks buffed to within an inch of its life.
The scabbard is also of later vintage, circa WW2 with the large round stud. But in saying that the bayonet itself would still be worth a quite considerable amount.

Cheers, S>S

Thanks for this. There are a few more markings that will show on the next imaged (again some photo retakes need be made by my fantastic neighbout)
On close look here are several other letters stamped into the metal beneath the wood grip.  An  "F" and a partial "Z" or "7". Inspector markings again?

On another note; Could any history be traced by the serial numbers if they were recorded as they left the factory?

Llewis

[shippingsteel]

Llewis, on 25 April 2012 - 03:04 AM, said:

On another note; Could any history be traced by the serial numbers if they were recorded as they left the factory?

The only other thing that can be ascertained from the serial number is that the bayonet was originally matched at the factory to the Lithgow SMLE rifle #20175.

Cheers, S>S