13 replies to this topic

[seadog]

Burials of found remains schedule:

CWGC Link

Note that they are all unidentified and some finds apparently go back to 2007!

I am glad not to see the Beaucamps-Ligny 15 or the Comines 6 on the schedule and hopefully the MOD will be still attempting to identify these soldiers.

Norman

[David Faulder]

I wrote to CWGC asking:
Could you tell me where and when each of these bodies/remains were found?
    Could you also indicate whether any samples have been taken - should it be possible at a later stage to use scientific techniques to try an ascertain a more precise identification?
    
They passed my enquiry on to the JCCC whose replies I have embedded into the CWGC press release reproduced below.

CWGC & JCCC said:

CWGC Burials - 1st / 2nd September 2011
Over the last few years dating back to September 2007, several  remains of British Soldiers from the First World War have been found in  the Western Front area. On September 1st and 2nd this year, re-burial  services will be held at several cemeteries across this region for these  fallen soldiers.

For further details, please see below –

September 1st 2011 -

1000-1100 hrs

Windy Corner Guards Cemetery – Cuinchy

THE BURIAL SERVICE FOR THE REMAINS OF AN UNKNOWN BRITISH SOLDIER OF THE FIRST WORLD WAR  found 12 September 2007 Givenchy

1300-1400 hrs

Sanders Keep Cemetery – Graincourt-Les-Havrincourt

THE BURIAL SERVICE FOR THE REMAINS OF AN UNKNOWN BRITISH SOLDIER OF THE MACHINE GUN CORPS  found 14 April 2009 Havrincourt

1430-1600 hrs

Peronne Communal Cemetery Extension

THE BURIAL SERVICE FOR THE REMAINS OF THREE UNKNOWN BRITISH SOLDIERS OF THE FIRST WORLD WAR  found 16 July 2008 Biaches

September 2nd 2011 -

1000-1130 hrs  

Adelaide Cemetery Villers-Bretonneux

THE BURIAL SERVICE FOR THE REMAINS OF TWO UNKNOWN BRITISH SOLDIERS OF THE WEST YORKSHIRE REGIMENT  found 11 December 2008 Villers-Bretonneux

1300-1400 hrs

Masnieres British Cemetery – Marcoing

THE BURIAL SERVICE FOR THE REMAINS OF AN UNKNOWN BRITISH SOLDIER OF THE FIRST WORLD WAR  found  17 December 2008 Les Rues des Vignes, near Marcoing

The JCCC added:

JCCC said:

We have liaised with both named Regiments but we were unable to positively identify the soldiers concerned given the number of casualties involved.   No samples were taken because it not our policy to do this.

I have added these to the map of finds and reburials.

David

[towisuk]

Hi David, first time I've come across this map with finds and re-burials, nice work, how far back do you go when you started it mate...?
regards
tom

[seadog]

I agree Tom this is an excellent piece of work by David, in fact unique. The remarks by the JCCC regarding the taking of (DNA) samples seems to put the lid on any hope of identification of the Beaucamps-Ligny 15 and the Comines 6 (See David’s map these are indicated by pins)although this may not be the case. I realize that it is the responsibility of the MOD to release the remains for burial but why the delay? the earliest found date from 2007 and the latest from 2009. Do they just wait until there are a number before acting? I acknowledge of course that the quantity of individual soldier’s remains found will vary considerably.

MAY THEY ALL REST IN PEACE

NOT FORGOTTEN

Regards
Norman

[David Faulder]

towisuk, on 28 August 2011 - 05:04 AM, said:

Hi David, first time I've come across this map with finds and re-burials, nice work, how far back do you go when you started it mate...?
regards
tom

Hi Tom,

Thanks for your comments.  In reply to your comment on the Hill 60 Development site I said:

The earliest that I have listed is 1978 - and it is not a complete list  from that date - by the very nature of how I gather data (I am open to  receiving details of any verifiable descoveries or subsequent  reburials).  In due course I may ask CWGC/JCCC to give me a complete  list from say 2000 - but at the moment my interest is in current  recoveries and the efforts put into either identifying them, or at the  least taking sufficient samples so that if technology (or other data)  evolves a later attempt at identification can be made. (Once remains are  in an "known unto God" grave there is currently nothing that can or  should be done.)

The map highlights that discoveries are still being made and possibly invites analysis of why remains from British units seem to be less likely to be identified than say Australian or New Zealand remains etc.  I do have a concern - not so much about individuals (who do tend to answer my questions) - but about the system.  To take one example:

In the above list:

CWGC & JCCC said:

...
September 1st 2011 -

1000-1100 hrs

Windy Corner Guards Cemetery – Cuinchy

THE BURIAL SERVICE FOR THE REMAINS OF AN UNKNOWN BRITISH SOLDIER OF THE FIRST WORLD WAR  found 12 September 2007 Givenchy
...

When plotting this discovery I found there were two Givenchy locations (one near Cuinchy, and the one I already knew of near Vimy); so I emailed JCCC asking for confirmation of the discovery location.  To my surprise they did not have this information to hand and had to refer my question back to CWGC ("I was given the location by the CWGC therefore I will check with them and respond soonest.")!  How did the JCCC come to the conclusion that he was "an Unknown", if they did not even know where he was found?  Now it is quite possible (probable even) that knowing that location may not have helped, but it seems to indicate to me an unwillingness to anticipate the possibility of a "shortlisting and tracing of DNA relevant relatives" process (or similar less technologically intensive process).

David

[chrislock]

Does this CWGC release deal just with re-internments/burials in France or is it that no re-internments/burials are taking place in Belgium?

Chris

[seadog]

Hi Chris, it is my understanding that all new interments undertaken by the CWGC at the behest of the MOD will be notified on their website. On the subject of Belgium I wonder if you are able to post a shot of the soldiers buried in Cement House who were found during the Boezinge excavations they are in the following rows:-

Plot 1 Row H Graves 5-16 (12)
Plot 2 Row AA Graves 1-17 (17)
Plot 2 Row BB Graves 1-17 (17)
Plot 2 Row CC Graves 2-15 (14)
Plot 3 Row AA Graves 11-16 (6)


Regards
Norman

[chrislock]

Hi Norman.

I do not personally have photographs of these mens burial services. I did attend most I believe in official capacity but did not take photographs. Photo's do surface from time to time from other forum members who may have also been in attendance on their own accord. However, I can reveal Ray Jones was always the Chaplain presiding and of course the Last Post Association buglers offered the bugle tributes. When men were identified by Battalion, often representatives such as buglers, bearers, volley fire parties etc would also be in attendance.

Most were buried in Cement House and Essex Farm with some going to Tyne Cot, Messines Ridge, Hooge Crater, Passchendaele New Military and of course the recovered confirmed Aussies went into the larger Polygon Wood Cemetery.

[seadog]

Thanks for the post Chris, if it is possible to take a general photo(s)of the present locations in Cement House as per my post I would very much appreciate it. These burials occurred prior to the CWGC agreeing to announce such interments on their web site and I will include the image(s)with your permission with this photo in my Flickr photoset.

Photo:
http://www.flickr.co...157602287640999

Regards
Norman

[johnreed]

Norman

I will be in Ieper on the 12 Sept for a week I will take the photographs then.

John

[chrislock]

Thanks John. I am a tad busy at the mo but if you struggle, let me know and I will see if I can assist you. Bear with me Norman, I do work you know!

John, if you speak with Frans, he will confirm the grave of the soldier who was found with the bugle. I know this being an issue with Frans.

[seadog]

Thanks for the photo offers, much appreciated. Chris, the man with the bugle sounds interesting, any further info?.

Norman

[seadog]

I am delighted to put on record my appreciation for the excellent work that member John Reed has done in supplying me with images of the fallen from the Boezinge excavations and who are buried in Cement House CWGC in Flanders.  Thanks John, if we ever wanted a reason as to why this forum is so important and interesting then this is it. With John’s permission I will post the images to Flickr and then post a link here.

Regards
Norman

[seadog]

The photos are now on Flickr as below:

Cement House Flanders