69 replies to this topic

[brucehubbard]

Don't pussyfoot around, Grumpy.....tell us what you really think!

I am reading this book at the moment. I find that it is so detailed that I am reading it very slowly, regularly re-reading bits of it, but really enjoying it.
A thoroughly good read!

Bruce

[truthergw]

GRUMPY, on 21 January 2012 - 10:05 AM, said:

I think he was often too busy chasing the tarts to concentrate on his day job. He lost his head and nearly lost us the war in the first month. Much maligned? Not enough, as far as I am concerned. A vertically challenged mixture of Sarkozy and Bercow methinks, without the ability to even speak French.

Thats it, I shall give up being nice to people after that, and revert to my eponym.

This may well deserve a thread but in the meantime.. I was of a very similar opinion until I started looking closely at 1915. I think there was a lot of Col. Blimp in him and also Major Mainwaring. His amorous exploits do not seem to have affected his military prowess. I suspect that the French may have rather admired him for it. There is much he can be criticised for but he did bring the BEF out of Mons and Le Cateau with remarkably few casualties. All in all, I think he was a man who could be manipulated and there was no shortage of people eager to take full advantage of that. His memoirs and his son's defence did him no favours. Richard Holmes' biography was very good but I wonder if the definitive life is not still to be written?  

I rather liked your new, soft and cuddly persona. Are you sure you need to revert?

[Jerrymurland]

Quote

question : how does the author perceive Zuber's depiction of the Mons fighting

Answer: with a pinch of salt but I think he is correct about some of the Mon's myths ...machine guns, casualties etc.

Jerry

[LenT]

Hi all,
the word rout associated with the retreat rang a bell but I had to go back a long way to find where I had seen it before. In fact Nigel Hamilton uses it in 'Monty: The Making of a General'. Hamilton pulls no punches. Mons was a debacle. Le Cateau both a 'massacre' and a 'fiasco' with casualties worse even than the butcher's bill of Waterloo. Hamilton states that the troops were 'routed'. Published 1981. Interesting to see how historical interpretations go in circles.

                                          Len

[Paul Granger]

'Le Cateau both a 'massacre' and a 'fiasco' with casualties worse even than the butcher's bill of Waterloo.'

Not sure if this is Nigel Hamilton of Len T's  view, but while Le Cateau might have been a fiasco, I don't think you can say the losses were worse than Waterloo. I got ' Retreat and Rearguard' this morning, and have only had the briefest of skims but Chapter 8 , referencing Messrs Cave and Sheldon of this parish, quotes overall British casualties as 5000, with 500 dead, which is a fair number, but compares well with Waterloo , where there were around 24,000 Anglo/Allied casualties of which just under 10,000 were killed or missing

[Michelle Young]

Going to read Ascoli THe Mons Star now; preparing for our Riding the Retreat on Bertha the BMW  

Michelle

[LenT]

Hi Paul,
definitely Nigel Hamilton's point of view. The quotes are all from volume 1 of his 3 volume life of Montgomery. I suspect his view was typical of many if not most adults in the late seventies early eighties when he was writing. Revisionist historian's still had an uphill struggle in front of them to change people's perceptions of WW1. If indeed they have?

                                      Len

[Robert Dunlop]

Michelle, Ascoli's book is reasonable but several aspects have been superceded. The perspectives on the German forces and how they operated are not very good.

Robert

[Michelle Young]

Thank you Robert, I'll take on Terraines Mons book afterwards!

Michelle

[Old Tom]

Does Grumpy's final point really suggest that, in general, shorties speak French?

Old Tom

[truthergw]

I did buy the book and it finally came to the top of the pile. I particularly enjoyed the detailed descriptions of the actions which are generally dealt with in a sentence or two. Re the earlier discussion on the retreat being a near rout: I think the term was applied too widely but there were certainly incidents between Mons and the Marne, especially in the first days, when it would not have taken much more pressure to cause a local rout. I do not read many books of this nature and so I am reluctant to categorise it. Probably not one of the great books but I am glad to have read it.

[squirrel]

Thoroughly enjoyed the book. Detailed and well written. FWIW this book, and some others that I have read, seem more realistic with regard to the numbers of casualties inflicted on the Germans by the BEF.If some of the figures bandied about were true then the German advance would have come to a juddering halt. As it was, it was slowed up and the Germans did learn the hard way to have respect for the capabilities and the musketry of the BEF. IMHO I think that Mr Murland has it just about right.
Mons and le Cateau, and also some of the other engagements on the retreat, were "Soldier's battles" - Officers, NCO's and the soldiers of the Regular battalions doing exactly what they had trained for and what many had "practiced" before.
French was out of touch, Smith-Dorrien did exactly what his experience and knowledge had taught him and Haig had a shaky time in his first major engagement as a Corps Commander.

[Steven Broomfield]

truthergw, on 21 January 2012 - 11:12 AM, said:

Major Mainwaring.

Captain.

Even so, his rank was entirely self-appointed and he should only have been a Lieutenant. BBC very kindly repeated the relevant episode last night.

Carry on.

[Melvin Hurst]

I have just finished reading Jerry Murland's "Retreat and Rearguard 1914" and can recommend it thoroughly to anyone who wants to know in detail what happened to the BEF in the first few weeks of the war. The first major action at Mons is described in greater detail, and using more first-hand accounts, than I have come across before, and subsequent small but hard fought actions at Audregnies, Landrecies, Le Grand Fayt, Etreux, Cerizy, Villers-Cotterets and Nery are also well described, as well as the generally unsung bravery of the Royal Engineers in destroying bridges along the line of retreat. The largest action of all, at Le Cateau, is described only briefly, but as this has been covered extensively elsewhere (notably by Nigel Cave and Jack Sheldon), perhaps this can be excused.

   The maps provided of each action are clear, and the photographs are well chosen, including many of the battle scenes as they are today, always a useful guide to the visitor. However, the text has been done a disservice by some less than diligent proof reading in places, surprising for a publisher with such a generally high standard of production.

   One of the most interesting features of the book is the description of what happened to the many men who were not able to take part in the retreat. Some were stranded behind German lines after the withdrawal began or escaped after their capture. Many made brave attempts at getting home through Belgium and Holland; some were successful and rejoined their regiments to fight another day, but tragically some were caught or betrayed and executed as spies. Others who were wounded or captured during those early battles are barely mentioned in most accounts of the time, and the courage and determination shown in their brief war by those who had to endure terrible wounds, often lying in the open for several days, is remarkable.

   The stories of successful escapes from POW camps deep inside Germany are astounding, but sadly many prisoners didn't survive their captivity. It is heartening to know that some men with wounds which rendered them unfit for further service were eventually repatriated, a little known facet of the war, and perhaps one which warrants an account of its own.

[Steven Broomfield]

Just bought this at the MHS shindig in Farnham. Cost £5.50 for a new copy. Looking forward to reading it: it will be the first GW book I've read for ages.

[Chris_Baker]

£5.50? That will make Jerry wince!

[Jerrymurland]

Thank you Chris! I'm trying to grin but finding it a struggle!!

Jerry

[Steven Broomfield]

To be fair, the other option was the Histoy of the 16th Lancers in the GW, but as that was £150 I felt lining Mr Murland's pocket was a safer option, wife-wise.

[Jerrymurland]

Thank you Steve, a truly admirable sentiment!

Jerry

[Ciaran Byrne]

Steven Broomfield, on 14 October 2012 - 03:33 PM, said:

To be fair, the other option was the Histoy of the 16th Lancers in the GW, but as that was £150 I felt lining Mr Murland's pocket was a safer option, wife-wise.

I saw this on Ebay a few years ago for £30 and am still kicking myself for not snapping it up. Its an excellent read.