paul lucas, on 15 February 2013 - 03:51 PM, said:
I am still looking for the list (s)
Remembered Today:
4
Lithuanians sent from Scotland to Russia
Started by
paul lucas
, Aug 29 2011 07:38 PM
169 replies to this topic
#152
paul lucas
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Posted 15 February 2013 - 05:33 PM
I have checked that list of Lithuanians fighting for independence and my great-uncle is not on it. I am organising for his KGB file to be translated - it is in handwritten Russian - as it may give a clue to what happened between 1917 and 1941.
The list (s) I refer to are those for the Lithuanians sent back in 1917 - about 1,100 - and their dependents sent in 1919.
The list (s) I refer to are those for the Lithuanians sent back in 1917 - about 1,100 - and their dependents sent in 1919.
#153
frances togneri
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Posted 20 February 2013 - 01:24 PM
Paul
I have not heard back from Glasgow archives. I sent a reminder three weeks ago but no reply. I have sent it again. It is beginning to look as though most records relating to these men were destroyed because no-one thought it important. I also did not forget to pursue the link with the Lithuanian newspaper. As above, no reply since before Christmas, no reply three weeks ago and message resent. I will keep you posted on this. I have not come up with any other avenues to explore. It is very frustrating!!!
Still enjoying the sun and snow in the Pyrenees. Sitti ng in a cold part of a local supermarket at the moment. Brrrr!
Frances
I have not heard back from Glasgow archives. I sent a reminder three weeks ago but no reply. I have sent it again. It is beginning to look as though most records relating to these men were destroyed because no-one thought it important. I also did not forget to pursue the link with the Lithuanian newspaper. As above, no reply since before Christmas, no reply three weeks ago and message resent. I will keep you posted on this. I have not come up with any other avenues to explore. It is very frustrating!!!
Still enjoying the sun and snow in the Pyrenees. Sitti ng in a cold part of a local supermarket at the moment. Brrrr!
Frances
#154
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Posted 20 February 2013 - 03:33 PM
"It is beginning to look as though most records relating to these men were destroyed because no-one thought it important."
I'm afraid that seems to be the case all over I'm afraid, lots of dead ends.
John
I'm afraid that seems to be the case all over I'm afraid, lots of dead ends.
John
#155
frances togneri
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Posted 21 February 2013 - 03:03 PM
John
Where have you tried looking? I checked Scottish Archives, Edinburgh City Archives, Newcastle and Glasgow, The police were responsible for Alien Registrations. Others in the forum checked Kew Archives.
Frances
Where have you tried looking? I checked Scottish Archives, Edinburgh City Archives, Newcastle and Glasgow, The police were responsible for Alien Registrations. Others in the forum checked Kew Archives.
Frances
#156
dubs
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Posted 21 February 2013 - 05:58 PM
frances togneri, on 07 January 2013 - 08:02 PM, said:
They kept in touch with some people in or around Bathgate and cousins remember visiting people. A family called Savage (Pashukevich) seem to have been their main friends.
Frances
Frances
Frances, yesterday I received in the post my Great-Grannys photo album (I wrote to my Mum's cousin and asked if I could borrow it...) - it has loads of old photos in it but most have nothing written on the back, which is a shame. However, one photo does show my great granny with her two friends. The writing on the back says 'This picture was taken during the great war 1914-1918. All lovely ladies from Eastern Europe. Mrs Pasukeviciene from Paulville nr Bathgate, Mrs Naujokiene (?) from Stoneyburn and Blackburn and Mariya Ziurinskas from Lithuania, Essen, Stoneyburn, Armadale and Dalkeith' (my great granny). Given the similarity between the names, could this Mrs PASUKEVICIENE be part of your Savage/PASHUKEVICH family?
Can anyone on here translate Lithuanian - a number of the photos have Lithuanian writing on the back...? (I have tried Google Translate but with only limited success...)
#157
frances togneri
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Posted 01 March 2013 - 10:48 AM
Hi dubs
Finding a decent WiFi connection can be a challenge sometimes!
I retrieved the information I have on the PASHUKEWICHE family. I also found a few spelling variations!
Depending when the photo was taken, the possible females are: Alsbieta (b. 1916), Damicela (b1907), Ona (b. 1909).
In the 1911 Census I can find Ina (age 2) so this is likely to be Ona; Dominick who is 4 years. I assume this is an error for Damicela. There is a Margaret who is 29 years of age. She was born about 1882. Other names listed for Margaret are Magde and Senkus. Could Senkus be her maiden name?
The males are George (Jurgis) (born abt. 1875), John M (b. 1904), William (b. 1905) and Peter (b. 1912)
I believe Damicela changed her name to Sarah Savage. I found her name and address in my uncle's address book as they remained friends through life. I suspect Sarah never married and lived in Bathgate all her life. She died in 1984. My mother was born in 1916 so her age fits with the children. Hope this helps. I have some photos of unidentified people, including one photo taken in a studio in Bathgate, date unknown. I don't know if any of the people are from this family.
Frances
Finding a decent WiFi connection can be a challenge sometimes!
I retrieved the information I have on the PASHUKEWICHE family. I also found a few spelling variations!
Depending when the photo was taken, the possible females are: Alsbieta (b. 1916), Damicela (b1907), Ona (b. 1909).
In the 1911 Census I can find Ina (age 2) so this is likely to be Ona; Dominick who is 4 years. I assume this is an error for Damicela. There is a Margaret who is 29 years of age. She was born about 1882. Other names listed for Margaret are Magde and Senkus. Could Senkus be her maiden name?
The males are George (Jurgis) (born abt. 1875), John M (b. 1904), William (b. 1905) and Peter (b. 1912)
I believe Damicela changed her name to Sarah Savage. I found her name and address in my uncle's address book as they remained friends through life. I suspect Sarah never married and lived in Bathgate all her life. She died in 1984. My mother was born in 1916 so her age fits with the children. Hope this helps. I have some photos of unidentified people, including one photo taken in a studio in Bathgate, date unknown. I don't know if any of the people are from this family.
Frances
#158
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Posted 01 March 2013 - 08:51 PM
DavidGrannyZalbum (64) (1072 x 804)smllpic.jpg 134.03K
0 downloadsThanks Frances.
Great-granny was born in 1888 so was in her mid to late 20's in the photos (though she looks older to me!). My great granny is standing on the right. The notes on the back of the photo mention firstly Mrs Pasukeviciene then it says 'seated' then Mrs Naujokiene. So Mrs P may be the lady standing on the left (who looks younger than granny) or the seated lady, depending on how you interpret the writing on the back of the photo! Either way, it is most likely to be your Margaret as she is closest in age...will see if I can find out more... Thanks for that info.
#159
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Posted 04 March 2013 - 03:23 PM
Hi, I've only recently been made aware of this thread & have read it from the beginning with great interest. It's so exciting when researchers find documental evidence to prove their suspicions & family lore. You have all worked so hard & harvested a lot of information.
I am writing a book about my parents & have been researching for sometime, hitting so many brick walls that I've felt like a pinball wizard at times! Although raised by my Catholic mum in 1950s Liverpool, my father was Jewish & my paternal grandfather was a Jewish immigrant & I am tracing my grandfather's Jewish roots - not easy!
On every UK census, my grandfather stated that he was a German National. Like many, he never bothered to naturalise. I never found him interned in any alien camps & I suspected his claim of being from Germany was a kosher fib. Earlier immigrants often claimed to be German-Jewish because German Jews were well-respected & got a better job than Jews from other areas of Eastern Europe during the 1700s-1800s. With help from great efriends I've made, we traced him on 1891 Leeds census & then the 1901 & 1911 Liverpool censuses. I could find no family connection in Leeds or Liverpool for him apart from the three Russian women he married & the 9 children he fathered, plus three stepchildren he raised. (He was widowed three times) Name changing is always a problem tracing Jewish roots & Jews also used a variety of given names too. So I understand the problems you're all facing with the variety of names.
The only marriage we have found for my grandfather was his first marriage in Leeds in 1890 & this gave me his father's name, but still stated that Germany was his birth place, but no town was given. My breakthrough came when we found a 1902 death in Dublin of the only likely candidate for my grandfather's father - my gt grandfather. Although no link to Ireland had ever shown before, I kept my mind open. It was a couple of years before I found the proof to link him to the Dublin 1902 death of the man I suspected was my gt grandfather.
The concrete proof I needed came from the Police Alien Register for WW1 in Dublin. A trip over to visit the Dublin National Archives allowed me to see the record for myself. The little fibber was not from Germany at all... he was from Sveksna, Kovno, Russia. Now Lithuania, as you all know.
My grandfather had apparently visited Dublin with his 3rd wife & 5 of his younger children on the 28th June 1917. Why he had crossed U-Boat Alley only one year after the Lusitania was sunk with 5 children from the age of 3-years to 19-years in the middle of WW1 is still a mystery. But remarkably lucky for me, he was a registered alien (Friendly Alien) & so was not interned in any alien camp, which he would have been if he had been from Germany. Instead, he was allowed to move about freely provided he reported to the police station at whatever town he was visiting & signed the alien register.
My grandfather was born in Sveksna in 1867.This information proved a link to an elder brother for my grandfather who had naturalised in Dublin before he went to South Africa in 1881 & his naturalisation records gave his parents names, which linked them together. I've since found a sister & two brothers for my grandfather all in Dublin. The alien register gave information off my grandfather's alien registration card, which was issued in Liverpool in 1916. It contained the issue number, his home address in Liverpool & the register gave th address he was visiting in Dublin, plus his description, name of his wife & the children who were with them.
The Merseyside Police Museum only have about 40 surviving alien records for both WW1 & WW11. Sadly, my grandfather was not one of those 40. But immigrants moved about visiting each other, especially Jews. So I was lucky to find that vital piece of evidence. I've read recently that Leeds/Yorkshire have found some alien records too. So if you cannot find your ancestors where you expect to find them, then maybe they visited another town who have records of visiting aliens... you never know!
My last mystery of my grandfather's family is an unknown soldier in WW1 uniform. I strongly suspect his name is Abraham Cohen. He was born in Russia, probably the Lithuanian area of Russia, about 1897/8/9. He was my grandmother, Rebecca Cohen's son to her 1st marriage. She came to Liverpool as a widow with two sons, about 1904/5 & married my grandfather, Louis Friedman/Freedman/Freeman, himself a widower with 6 children. Abraham appears on the 1911 census with the family for the first time. His life was tragic. His father had died & he & his younger brother were brought to Liverpool about 1904/5 & had to integrate into a large new family. I have found no trace of the marriage, but many 2nd marriages were only a religious ceremony & not a civil marriage.
In 1907 Abraham's younger brother died at only 7 years of age & in 1911 his mother, my grandmother Rebecca died of cancer after giving my grandfather 2 more children, my father being one of them. My grandfather was now left with 10 children plus his stepson Abraham, who was then 13 years of age.
Abraham would have been classed as a friendly alien. It is thought that he died himself of either war wounds or of cancer about 1916 or perhaps about 1929. The information is conflicting & he remains an unsolved mystery. His British uniform has not been identified with 100% certainty & we have not found his death under the name Abraham Cohen/Friedman/Freedman/Freeman. It is probably that his 1st name was changed from Abraham to perhaps something else beginning with A.
I have tried tracing the family in Sveksna, but found nothing with the Friedman name, or any of its variations & have been advised that the family name may not have even began with 'F' when the family lived in Sveksna, or surrounding area. BANG... another brick wall!
So that's my story... sorry to steer you onto Jewish research, but my face lit up when I read this thread.
My unknown soldier
I with you all the best of luck.
Researcher 11
I am writing a book about my parents & have been researching for sometime, hitting so many brick walls that I've felt like a pinball wizard at times! Although raised by my Catholic mum in 1950s Liverpool, my father was Jewish & my paternal grandfather was a Jewish immigrant & I am tracing my grandfather's Jewish roots - not easy!
On every UK census, my grandfather stated that he was a German National. Like many, he never bothered to naturalise. I never found him interned in any alien camps & I suspected his claim of being from Germany was a kosher fib. Earlier immigrants often claimed to be German-Jewish because German Jews were well-respected & got a better job than Jews from other areas of Eastern Europe during the 1700s-1800s. With help from great efriends I've made, we traced him on 1891 Leeds census & then the 1901 & 1911 Liverpool censuses. I could find no family connection in Leeds or Liverpool for him apart from the three Russian women he married & the 9 children he fathered, plus three stepchildren he raised. (He was widowed three times) Name changing is always a problem tracing Jewish roots & Jews also used a variety of given names too. So I understand the problems you're all facing with the variety of names.
The only marriage we have found for my grandfather was his first marriage in Leeds in 1890 & this gave me his father's name, but still stated that Germany was his birth place, but no town was given. My breakthrough came when we found a 1902 death in Dublin of the only likely candidate for my grandfather's father - my gt grandfather. Although no link to Ireland had ever shown before, I kept my mind open. It was a couple of years before I found the proof to link him to the Dublin 1902 death of the man I suspected was my gt grandfather.
The concrete proof I needed came from the Police Alien Register for WW1 in Dublin. A trip over to visit the Dublin National Archives allowed me to see the record for myself. The little fibber was not from Germany at all... he was from Sveksna, Kovno, Russia. Now Lithuania, as you all know.
My grandfather had apparently visited Dublin with his 3rd wife & 5 of his younger children on the 28th June 1917. Why he had crossed U-Boat Alley only one year after the Lusitania was sunk with 5 children from the age of 3-years to 19-years in the middle of WW1 is still a mystery. But remarkably lucky for me, he was a registered alien (Friendly Alien) & so was not interned in any alien camp, which he would have been if he had been from Germany. Instead, he was allowed to move about freely provided he reported to the police station at whatever town he was visiting & signed the alien register.
My grandfather was born in Sveksna in 1867.This information proved a link to an elder brother for my grandfather who had naturalised in Dublin before he went to South Africa in 1881 & his naturalisation records gave his parents names, which linked them together. I've since found a sister & two brothers for my grandfather all in Dublin. The alien register gave information off my grandfather's alien registration card, which was issued in Liverpool in 1916. It contained the issue number, his home address in Liverpool & the register gave th address he was visiting in Dublin, plus his description, name of his wife & the children who were with them.
The Merseyside Police Museum only have about 40 surviving alien records for both WW1 & WW11. Sadly, my grandfather was not one of those 40. But immigrants moved about visiting each other, especially Jews. So I was lucky to find that vital piece of evidence. I've read recently that Leeds/Yorkshire have found some alien records too. So if you cannot find your ancestors where you expect to find them, then maybe they visited another town who have records of visiting aliens... you never know!
My last mystery of my grandfather's family is an unknown soldier in WW1 uniform. I strongly suspect his name is Abraham Cohen. He was born in Russia, probably the Lithuanian area of Russia, about 1897/8/9. He was my grandmother, Rebecca Cohen's son to her 1st marriage. She came to Liverpool as a widow with two sons, about 1904/5 & married my grandfather, Louis Friedman/Freedman/Freeman, himself a widower with 6 children. Abraham appears on the 1911 census with the family for the first time. His life was tragic. His father had died & he & his younger brother were brought to Liverpool about 1904/5 & had to integrate into a large new family. I have found no trace of the marriage, but many 2nd marriages were only a religious ceremony & not a civil marriage.
In 1907 Abraham's younger brother died at only 7 years of age & in 1911 his mother, my grandmother Rebecca died of cancer after giving my grandfather 2 more children, my father being one of them. My grandfather was now left with 10 children plus his stepson Abraham, who was then 13 years of age.
Abraham would have been classed as a friendly alien. It is thought that he died himself of either war wounds or of cancer about 1916 or perhaps about 1929. The information is conflicting & he remains an unsolved mystery. His British uniform has not been identified with 100% certainty & we have not found his death under the name Abraham Cohen/Friedman/Freedman/Freeman. It is probably that his 1st name was changed from Abraham to perhaps something else beginning with A.
I have tried tracing the family in Sveksna, but found nothing with the Friedman name, or any of its variations & have been advised that the family name may not have even began with 'F' when the family lived in Sveksna, or surrounding area. BANG... another brick wall!
So that's my story... sorry to steer you onto Jewish research, but my face lit up when I read this thread.
My unknown soldier
I with you all the best of luck.
Researcher 11
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#161
paul lucas
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Posted 04 March 2013 - 11:13 PM
Sveksna is near to Klaipeda which was Memel before World War II. There was a mixture of Germans, Lithuanian Jews and Lithuanian Lutherans, and Lithuanian Catholics living in this area. Most people tried to be more "germanic" as it they wanted to be seen to be educated and "middle class". In other areas of Lithuania, people changed their names to be more Polish so they sounded more educated and "middle class" as well.
Memel was a German town for hundreds of years going back to the Teutonic Knights. The history of this area is fascinating.
Memel was a German town for hundreds of years going back to the Teutonic Knights. The history of this area is fascinating.
#162
Researcher11
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Posted 05 March 2013 - 10:42 AM
paul lucas, on 04 March 2013 - 11:13 PM, said:
Sveksna is near to Klaipeda which was Memel before World War II. There was a mixture of Germans, Lithuanian Jews and Lithuanian Lutherans, and Lithuanian Catholics living in this area. Most people tried to be more "germanic" as it they wanted to be seen to be educated and "middle class". In other areas of Lithuania, people changed their names to be more Polish so they sounded more educated and "middle class" as well.
Memel was a German town for hundreds of years going back to the Teutonic Knights. The history of this area is fascinating.
Memel was a German town for hundreds of years going back to the Teutonic Knights. The history of this area is fascinating.
Thank you Paul. That's interesting information about Memel, because although the alien register I found at the Dublin NA states my grandfather was born in Sveksna & the naturalisation records of his elder brother who naturalised in Dublin in 1881 & then went to South Africa, also states that he was born in Sveksna, no records of their births have actually been found in Sveksna. I have a friend who is an archivist at the Jewish records in Israel, where all the Jewish records for Eastern Europe are kept & she has searched without success & her research is reliable. However, Jews did wander about, so it's interesting what you tell me about Memel being a German town, given my grandfather's claim of being German.
I've learnt through my research that my grandfather's brother & his sons worked in the goldmines when they went to South Africa. His eldest son Maurice, went to South Africa first & the rest of the family followed. They worked hard & prospered. In 1935 Maurice became the Mayor of Johannesburg. Many of their descendants studied mining at Uni. From little acorns...
My research began tracing a father who I never knew. He had been shrouded in secrecy all my life & my mother took that secret to her grave. It was only after her sudden death in 1989 that I found a letter, which gave me a name & an address in Hampstead. The following Christmas I was told my father had been Jewish. I'm told my Catholic mum met him secretly for 25 years, up until my birth in 1953... and ending in my birth. Thank G-d times have changed! At least in some parts of the world.
So I began a search for his family, which has taken me 20 years on & off. With some great help I've now found the descendants of his many siblings, in Liverpool, Wales & Australia. My mum was nearly 41 & my father nearly 48 when I was born.
I was their only child & they kept in contact with each other throughout their lives... neither of them married, either each other, nor anyone else. The letter I found gave my mother the news of his death. It was a sad ending to a sad story.
Although I never got to meet my father, I am fascinated by my new-found roots & addicted, as I see many of you are, to family history research. My husband grumbles that I'm more interested in dead people than the ones who are still breathing lol!
Sorry to hijack your interesting thread...
Researcher11
#163
frances togneri
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Posted 07 March 2013 - 04:10 PM
Dubs
I had a look through the photos I have on the laptop. It is possible there is a match between the people in your photo and mine but the difference in ages between when the photos were taken adds to the identification problems. I would like to check the original when I get back home and I will speak with you then. I think the one I have was taken at a Glasgow studio but I can't recall.
Frances
I had a look through the photos I have on the laptop. It is possible there is a match between the people in your photo and mine but the difference in ages between when the photos were taken adds to the identification problems. I would like to check the original when I get back home and I will speak with you then. I think the one I have was taken at a Glasgow studio but I can't recall.
Frances
#164
dubs
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Posted 07 March 2013 - 04:31 PM
frances togneri, on 07 March 2013 - 04:10 PM, said:
Dubs
I had a look through the photos I have on the laptop. It is possible there is a match between the people in your photo and mine but the difference in ages between when the photos were taken adds to the identification problems. I would like to check the original when I get back home and I will speak with you then. I think the one I have was taken at a Glasgow studio but I can't recall.
Frances
I had a look through the photos I have on the laptop. It is possible there is a match between the people in your photo and mine but the difference in ages between when the photos were taken adds to the identification problems. I would like to check the original when I get back home and I will speak with you then. I think the one I have was taken at a Glasgow studio but I can't recall.
Frances
#165
frances togneri
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Posted 08 March 2013 - 12:19 PM
Dubs
I am in a McD at Prades so I have a bit more time online. I have looked at the photos again and really can't make up my mind. The matches I see are maybe just common Lithuanian likenesses. I think they are mother and daughter and certainly lived in central Scotland. My family visited possible relatives in Glasgow as well as in Bathgate. It a shame they were all young children at the time and now can rfemember things I need to know. If the people in my photo are Mrs P and a daughter this would make it in the thirties or early forties. I have attached it - see what you think.
Frances
Family Tree _0034.jpg 375.33K
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I am in a McD at Prades so I have a bit more time online. I have looked at the photos again and really can't make up my mind. The matches I see are maybe just common Lithuanian likenesses. I think they are mother and daughter and certainly lived in central Scotland. My family visited possible relatives in Glasgow as well as in Bathgate. It a shame they were all young children at the time and now can rfemember things I need to know. If the people in my photo are Mrs P and a daughter this would make it in the thirties or early forties. I have attached it - see what you think.
Frances
Family Tree _0034.jpg 375.33K
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#166
dubs
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Posted 08 March 2013 - 12:40 PM
Just got my photo out - I would say the seated lady in my photo is the same as the seated lady in your photo....I see a definite likeness, particularly around the nose. I dont think its just wishful thinking, I really think they could be the same lady.... Are you having to spend a fortune on burgers in order to use your laptop???!
#168
frances togneri
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Posted 19 March 2013 - 10:41 AM
Hi
I have just picked up the last posts. Dubs - I don't eat burgers but coffee is 1.50 euros whch I don't mind. I can onlyh het 15 minutes at the local Tourist Info! As it happend, I am sitting in a McD now; place called Breve in the middled of France (Limousin). Calais tomorrrow then see if we can get back to Scotland. Concerned I don't have my snowshoes with me.
Paul - thanks for that information. I will explore this further when I get home. I am disappointed I have no news yet from the archive people I was in touch with but I will get back onto it soon.
To anyone interested - I was contacted some time ago in relation to a tapestry (Diaspora Project) planned for 2014. It will look at Scots around the world. I was nominated to take part following the item I had printed in scotlandspeople as they are looking for stories about Lithuanians in Scotland. It's just getting off the ground now so I am looking out some document and photo scans. I am not 100% certain what they will use and exactly how it will progress. Sewing skills are also being sought! The organisors are based at Newtongrange. Let me know and I will find the last emails from them.
Frances
I have just picked up the last posts. Dubs - I don't eat burgers but coffee is 1.50 euros whch I don't mind. I can onlyh het 15 minutes at the local Tourist Info! As it happend, I am sitting in a McD now; place called Breve in the middled of France (Limousin). Calais tomorrrow then see if we can get back to Scotland. Concerned I don't have my snowshoes with me.
Paul - thanks for that information. I will explore this further when I get home. I am disappointed I have no news yet from the archive people I was in touch with but I will get back onto it soon.
To anyone interested - I was contacted some time ago in relation to a tapestry (Diaspora Project) planned for 2014. It will look at Scots around the world. I was nominated to take part following the item I had printed in scotlandspeople as they are looking for stories about Lithuanians in Scotland. It's just getting off the ground now so I am looking out some document and photo scans. I am not 100% certain what they will use and exactly how it will progress. Sewing skills are also being sought! The organisors are based at Newtongrange. Let me know and I will find the last emails from them.
Frances
#169
John Duncan
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Posted 02 April 2013 - 09:22 PM
Where is the diaspora project based in Newtongrange? I live there and must confess to complete ignorance of it.
PS My sewing skills are limited to buttons.
John
PS My sewing skills are limited to buttons.
John
#170
frances togneri
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Posted 05 April 2013 - 11:54 AM
John
I have checked my emails and obviously confused Newtongrange with Prestoungrange. There is a connection with the Prestonpans tapestry from 2010. Here is a link I was sent last week. It doesn't give much detail on the forthcoming event but gives some background to the project.
http://www.scottishd...oratapestry.org
I have checked my emails and obviously confused Newtongrange with Prestoungrange. There is a connection with the Prestonpans tapestry from 2010. Here is a link I was sent last week. It doesn't give much detail on the forthcoming event but gives some background to the project.
http://www.scottishd...oratapestry.org
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