9 replies to this topic

[chrislock]

Hi Guys.

If we say look at Fromelles July 19th 1916 as an example, what was the immediate situation on the immediate left of the AIF 5th first soldier going over the parapet and likewise at the end of the line as per regarding the British 61st?

Was there a same Div guard party or maybe just an Officer to ensure all went over? Was it simply just the next man of the neighboring Div who took no part but simply stood to and watched the attack? Or was it something completely different or perhaps a bit of all?

On a separate issue; Can anyone confirm who were the next in line Divisions on that day at Fromelles and if they played any part, especially as per recovering the wounded and fallen of both attacking Divisions please?

Chris

[Ian Riley]

Chris,

I cannot talk for the tactics intended to secure the flanks of the Fromelles attack in particular and I am not sure that I am giving you the answer to the question you asked but if you mean (in the first part of your question), how were the extreme right and left flanks of a division/brigade secured if there were no other formations to the right or left my guess would be that

• the units (battalions) or sub-units (companies) would be instructed to form blocking positions facing onto the flank to protect against interference from the side. Companies and platoons attacked in depth in any case
• machine gun companies would be used to provide flank protection
• trench mortars and artillery would put down barrages (in the literal sense of a dam) to limit interference from the flanks
• addtionally the RFC might be given suppresive tasks on the flanks
• smoke might be used to shield flanks

Certainly, I have seen evidence of all these tactics being used (albeit on a much smaller scale) in trench raids in mid-1917

I think that these sort of tactics would have become more standard after the Somme and detail may possibly be found in SS 135 The Training and Employment of Divsions, published first in December 1916 if I recall correctly

If I have missed the point, my apologies

Ian

[Andrew P]

Chris, the New Zealand Division were on the flank of the 8th Brigade of the 5th Division. They were to provide fire support to the 8th Brigade without taking part in the actual assault from memory.

[chrislock]

Thank you Ian.

You offer a most informative post revealing much of what I expected and more as per the bigger picture but what I am looking for is what was the actual situation in the trench immediately next to or before the last man going over the top?

Please forgive me if my question was a tad vague. I,m pretty good at doing that!!

Andrew, thank you. Any ideas who were on the 61st Div's flank?

Chris

[Phil_B]

chrislock, on 06 September 2011 - 10:18 AM, said:

Andrew, thank you. Any ideas who were on the 61st Div's flank?

Chris

31st Div.

[chrislock]

Thank you Phil, very much appreciated!

Chris

[Andrew P]

Hi Chris

I double checked last night and though the NZ Division had been next to the 8th Brigade; before the battle the 60th British Brigade took up position between the New Zealanders and the 8th Brigade.
Robin Corfield's Fromelles history stated that the New Zealanders helped with the evaucation of casualties from the 8th Brigade.

Cheers
Andrew

[steve Berridge]

Hi,
Here is what one of the battalions of 60 Brigade were up to during the Fromelles action:-
WAR DIARY 6 (Service) BATTALION OXFORDSHIRE & BUCKINGHAMSHIRE LIGHT INFANTRY
60TH BRIGADE, 20TH (LIGHT) DIVISION

LOCATION - TRENCHES RUE PETTILION

19,07.16
11 am to 1130 am
Registration by Divn. Artillery and Trench Mortars

1130 am to 1 p.m.
Bombardment of German Lines by heavy artillery (9.2 inch Hows: and upwards)
6inch Hows. also registered during this period

1 - 3 p.m
Wire cutting by 18 pounders and Trench Mortar Batteries.

3 – 6 p.m
Bombardment of enemy’s lines by 4.5 inch and 6 inch Howitzers

4 – 6 p.m
Heavy artillery (9.5 inch Hows: and upwards) slow bombardment. Mine exploded.
Above programme was carried out in accordance with Operation Orders. The heavies were particularly accurate, and caused considerable damage to enemy’s trenches, the 60 pounder Trench Mortars were also very deadly.

The Australian infantry on our right advanced on the enemy’s trenches with little or no opposition, though the enemy in the front of us in order to bring fire to bear on them exposed themselves freely.

Our Machine and Lewis Guns and rifles constantly swept the parapet opposite, in order to keep them down, and appeared to be successful.
After explosion of mine the enemy manned his parapet N. of Farm DE LANGRE, and displayed much daring, in his endeavours to bring fire to bear on the assaulting Australians.

Some bombing was heard in the German Line during the night.

20.07.16
5.45 a.m
Orders received to cover retirement of 31st Austn Infty Regt.

10 a.m.
Beyond the bombing and some shelling which went on throughout the night, there was no evidence of a counter-attack
Situation quiet on our front, but shelling of Australian line on right flank.

Very quiet remainder of day and night.

Casualties: - 1 Officer killed, 1 Officer wounded, 4 O.R. killed, 29 wounded.

Regards
Steve

[gr/am1917]

I wonder if watchers of this forum saw, as I saw very recently a channel 4 documentary - something like  " the lost battalion"
just on this week in UK. This followed specifically a couple of individuals found at Fromelles, and showed the identification efforts etc. for British and Australians lost.

Apparently there are many more such pits of British and Australian multiple burials in the area. I have just returned from Mametz wood, which must have had a similar situation regarding numbers of dead. My impression there was that it may be best to leave those remaining in the wood and fields around where they are.


I will look to visit the Fromelles cemetery when passing by next. Someone ( CWGA?)  has obviously done a  brilliant job on the resulting monuments.
  
I was surprised to see this post had just beaten the programme to it!

GR/am

[chrislock]

steve Berridge, on 12 September 2011 - 08:26 PM, said:

Hi,
Here is what one of the battalions of 60 Brigade were up to during the Fromelles action:-
WAR DIARY 6 (Service) BATTALION OXFORDSHIRE & BUCKINGHAMSHIRE LIGHT INFANTRY
60TH BRIGADE, 20TH (LIGHT) DIVISION

LOCATION - TRENCHES RUE PETTILION

19,07.16
11 am to 1130 am
Registration by Divn. Artillery and Trench Mortars

1130 am to 1 p.m.
Bombardment of German Lines by heavy artillery (9.2 inch Hows: and upwards)
6inch Hows. also registered during this period

1 - 3 p.m
Wire cutting by 18 pounders and Trench Mortar Batteries.

3 – 6 p.m
Bombardment of enemy’s lines by 4.5 inch and 6 inch Howitzers

4 – 6 p.m
Heavy artillery (9.5 inch Hows: and upwards) slow bombardment. Mine exploded.
Above programme was carried out in accordance with Operation Orders. The heavies were particularly accurate, and caused considerable damage to enemy’s trenches, the 60 pounder Trench Mortars were also very deadly.

The Australian infantry on our right advanced on the enemy’s trenches with little or no opposition, though the enemy in the front of us in order to bring fire to bear on them exposed themselves freely.

Our Machine and Lewis Guns and rifles constantly swept the parapet opposite, in order to keep them down, and appeared to be successful.
After explosion of mine the enemy manned his parapet N. of Farm DE LANGRE, and displayed much daring, in his endeavours to bring fire to bear on the assaulting Australians.

Some bombing was heard in the German Line during the night.

20.07.16
5.45 a.m
Orders received to cover retirement of 31st Austn Infty Regt.

10 a.m.
Beyond the bombing and some shelling which went on throughout the night, there was no evidence of a counter-attack
Situation quiet on our front, but shelling of Australian line on right flank.

Very quiet remainder of day and night.

Casualties: - 1 Officer killed, 1 Officer wounded, 4 O.R. killed, 29 wounded.

Regards
Steve

Hi Steve.

Please forgive me but I have just found your post!!

This information explains much. Thank you.

Best wishes

Chris