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Cameron highlanders cap badge


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#1 Tim P

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Posted 06 September 2011 - 10:24 AM

Are there any differences between ww1 and ww2 Cameron cap badges?

#2 FROGSMILE

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Posted 06 September 2011 - 11:24 AM

Are there any differences between ww1 and ww2 Cameron cap badges?


No Tim, in shape/design they were identical and generally in white metal.

#3 Tim P

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Posted 06 September 2011 - 03:42 PM

I thought not but as you see them with and without scrolls (Liverpool Scottish and Canadian notwithstanding) so I thought I would see if opinions varied from mine.

I have one on a tam o shanter for ww2 stuff, correctly backed naturally. I have acquired a Glengarry which has the ribbon backing (it is modern but representative until a period one comes up. I think I will get another badge for that one. does the ribbon backing need to come off?

also, is the Tam a late ww1 affectation by the Camerons? Another thread on this subject did not seem to answer the question definitvely. I know which I prefer :D

#4 FROGSMILE

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Posted 06 September 2011 - 07:02 PM

I thought not but as you see them with and without scrolls (Liverpool Scottish and Canadian notwithstanding) so I thought I would see if opinions varied from mine.

I have one on a tam o shanter for ww2 stuff, correctly backed naturally. I have acquired a Glengarry which has the ribbon backing (it is modern but representative until a period one comes up. I think I will get another badge for that one. does the ribbon backing need to come off?

also, is the Tam a late ww1 affectation by the Camerons? Another thread on this subject did not seem to answer the question definitvely. I know which I prefer :D


The badge without the scroll is pre-1881 and not a head dress badge in WW1 or WW2 but was used on various other items including a sporran.

Unlike the officers version, the Cameron's glengarry worn by ORs at the beginning of WW1 did not seem to have a ribbon rosette behind the badge so that would need to come off, although they also had leather rather than cloth bands at that time.

The Tam began to be introduced from 1915-16 on I seem to recall and you can read lots about it, including specific dates, if you put the term in 'search' on this forum.

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#5 FROGSMILE

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Posted 06 September 2011 - 08:02 PM

And here are some ORs. It is not clear enough to be definitive but it does not appear as if they have rosettes behind the badges.

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#6 Tim P

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Posted 06 September 2011 - 08:07 PM

I am immensely grateful. I had no idea that the band was leather. Not a problem, easy enough to fix... this place is a goldmine of knowledge and experience. Handy when you are on a steep learning curve!

#7 pioneercorps

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Posted 07 September 2011 - 10:32 PM

Hi

I hope you don't mind me coming in late on this one.

The Queens Own Cameron Highlanders, were the old 79th and they kept what was their old badge.
It showed St. Andrew and his Cross within a wreath of thistles, all in white metal.

The pattern " see photo",embodies also a scroll"Cameron". The sealed pattern for this latter badge was dated
1897 but an account from the Regiment contends that it was first issued in 1912. However, the 1st Battalion who
received these while at Aldershot, did not protest and so, the official Regiment badge in use in 1914 bore the scroll,
" Cameron".

Regards.
Gerwyn

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#8 Steven Broomfield

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Posted 08 September 2011 - 07:57 AM

Pedantically (and out of genuine interest), would one refer to a Scottish regimental badge as a Cap badge? Bonnet badge?

I merely ask - it's intriguing me.

#9 FROGSMILE

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Posted 08 September 2011 - 09:00 AM

I have found this definitive information from the contemporary War Illustrated of 1915, which also clarifies that the Camerons did wear a rosette, presumably for ORs as well as officers, although this is not always discernible in photos of the former. I suspect it was just smaller for the men.

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#10 FROGSMILE

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Posted 08 September 2011 - 09:19 AM

Like this.

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#11 Tim P

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Posted 08 September 2011 - 10:02 AM

Like this.



The photo of that does not show the band to be leather, it appears woven, is that the grain of pixels on my monitor?

#12 Andrew Upton

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Posted 08 September 2011 - 01:57 PM

The photo of that does not show the band to be leather, it appears woven, is that the grain of pixels on my monitor?


Modern ones use a woven band. At the time OR's glengarries generally used a leather band, as well as some Officers (some however used silk edges, and some OR's ones seem to have had them, seemingly the plain coloured ones).

I have found this definitive information from the contemporary War Illustrated of 1915, which also clarifies that the Camerons did wear a rosette, presumably for ORs as well as officers, although this is not always discernible in photos of the former. I suspect it was just smaller for the men.


I would be wary of calling it a definitive source - for example it illustrates the Officers version of the Seaforth badge with the seperate coronet and L (which OR's didn't get!) without any clear distinction as to whether all the others are the same.

#13 pioneercorps

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Posted 08 September 2011 - 02:58 PM

Hi

This has, rekindled my interest my collection of cap badges, and their History.

This is the earlier patern badge, which by the way, Scotsmen at the time would rather have worn.

Regards.
Gerwyn

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#14 FROGSMILE

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Posted 08 September 2011 - 04:52 PM

Modern ones use a woven band. At the time OR's glengarries generally used a leather band, as well as some Officers (some however used silk edges, and some OR's ones seem to have had them, seemingly the plain coloured ones).



I would be wary of calling it a definitive source - for example it illustrates the Officers version of the Seaforth badge with the seperate coronet and L (which OR's didn't get!) without any clear distinction as to whether all the others are the same.


Yes, it was 'definitively' ( as an extract taken from Dress Regulations by the periodical concerned) showing the glengarries and badges as worn by officers, I should have made that clear. Hence the separate badge for Seaforths and gross grain edging to the caps.

#15 FROGSMILE

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Posted 08 September 2011 - 04:54 PM

The photo of that does not show the band to be leather, it appears woven, is that the grain of pixels on my monitor?


Tim the officers version had a silk gross grain edging and the ORs leather.

#16 Tim P

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Posted 08 September 2011 - 07:20 PM

makes sense. I am gonna need to find someone to do a job for me.......

#17 Andrew Upton

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Posted 08 September 2011 - 07:55 PM

Yes, it was 'definitively' ( as an extract taken from Dress Regulations by the periodical concerned) showing the glengarries and badges as worn by officers, I should have made that clear. Hence the separate badge for Seaforths and gross grain edging to the caps.


I would still be wary - I've seen similar official things in period civvy publications that manage to make the strangest errors. Rank badges that no longer exist by the time of publication and a form of rank badge that never existed spring to mind...

#18 Andrew Upton

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Posted 08 September 2011 - 10:20 PM

Tim the officers version had a silk gross grain edging and the ORs leather.


Tim, this is not correct for the Camerons - in this case OR's used the non-leather edging, they were one of the exceptions. All the pictures of the Camerons Frogsmile posted earlier show this as well (the wider grosgrain ribbon banding the edge is very clear to see). Also very clear to see in:

http://www.ebay.com/...=item588fa432aa

#19 Tim P

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Posted 08 September 2011 - 10:30 PM

So I don't need to go sourcing a leather worker...? also I am planning to base my Cameron set up as a SNCO. This may have some bearing.

#20 Andrew Upton

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Posted 08 September 2011 - 10:48 PM

So I don't need to go sourcing a leather worker...? also I am planning to base my Cameron set up as a SNCO. This may have some bearing.


No you don't. Basically you want a glengarry of the appropriate base colour (in this case dark blue) with the correct coloured tourie (I believe also dark blue in this case, although you may wish to check) with the wide grosgrain banding. This will be relatively easy as they are still made like this today (unlike say a Seaforth style OR's one which should be narrow edged in leather for the period, but now are made with grosgrained banding as well).

NCO's in Scottish regiments seem to have some lee-way as regards cap badges. Private purchase badges of the OR's pattern but in finer quality material and finish are by no means uncommon, and some very senior NCO's seem to have been allowed Officer pattern badges. Finding a suitable period photo with the rank/appearance you're aiming for often provides a good target for what you want to get.

#21 FROGSMILE

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Posted 09 September 2011 - 06:37 PM

I would still be wary - I've seen similar official things in period civvy publications that manage to make the strangest errors. Rank badges that no longer exist by the time of publication and a form of rank badge that never existed spring to mind...


I am not talking about fantasy regulations I am talking about the real thing, something that I am quite familiar with given that their style and method of issue has not changed a great deal until very recently.

#22 FROGSMILE

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Posted 09 September 2011 - 06:47 PM

So I don't need to go sourcing a leather worker...? also I am planning to base my Cameron set up as a SNCO. This may have some bearing.


I am not sure where Andrew gets his information from, but in my own 40 years of collecting (and serving, which has given me unique access to in-house collections) I have seen only leather bound ORs glengarries from that period, although it is possible that as raw materials became scarcer in WW1 an alternative could have been used, albeit that it would not have been gross grain and more likely would have been a canvas type material.

Officers clothing was governed differently to the men's via 'Dress Regulations' that were issued by the War Office from time-to-time and the officers were expected to purchase their own items including badges and, in general, their uniforms were more elaborate, expensive and varied in style. In the case of glengarries this could involve superior napped woolen cloths, as determined by the dress regulations and silk, gross grain binding.

Soldiers clothing, including head dress and badges, was regulated differently and as time went on more 'generally' with an intent to make them as cheap as possible whilst meeting requirements of the regimental system in as economical a way as the manufacturing and procurement system would allow.

The work of provision, storage and supply was the responsibility of the Chief Ordnance Officer Royal Army Clothing Department, whose central depot was at Pimlico. The items (including Materials) that this department was responsible for are found in a Publication called the "Priced Vocabulary of Clothing and Necessaries " (PVCN). Pattern introductions and changes were tracked and recorded in the Royal Army Clothing Department Clothing ledgers or "Register of Changes" (shortened to List of Changes).


All plumes, hackles, glengarries, forage caps, FSC and so forth were recorded by serial number in PVCNs and that included any regimental variations or changes in manufacture. If the Camerons ORs had special made up glengarry caps with a cloth rather than leather binding then this will have been recorded. Someone, somewhere will have seen this if it existed.


The illustrations I posted are from officially issued Dress Regulations by the war office and show officers head dress, which is why the badge of the Seaforths is shown in several parts. They therefore have cloth binding.

I do not have PVCNs for the glengarries of WW1, perhaps Andrew has? If not I recommend a PM to Frank Sweeney who has an excellent collection of PVCNs and might well be able to clarify if the ORs of the Camerons had a special cloth binding to their glengarry. There are also some other forum members who specialize in Scottish regiments who might also have copies of the relevant official documentary records.

As regards the badges worn by SNCOs it depends on the rank of the NCO. The tradition came from the old grades of First and Second Class Staff Sergeant (a grouping of SNCOs, not a rank) who in late Victorian and Edwardian times were entitled to superior uniforms (and head dress) with extra gold lace on collars and cuffs. This privilege was extended to the style of head dress badge, with in English, Welsh and Irish regiments the badge often being of bullion wire and in Scottish regiments either, similar to the officers, or of superior metals. By 1915 all the First Class Staff Sergeants had become Warrant Officers, as had some of the second class also, albeit at the new second class of that rank. In short, a Warrant Officer of either 2nd or 1st Class would usually be entitled to what was still referred to as a "Staff Badge". Member Grumpy has also posted a list of Staff Sergeants as at 1914 in this forum, but for the moment here is my list from the turn of the century:

The Non-commissioned Officers take rank and precedence in a Regiment as follows :

1st Class Staff Sergeants.

1st.— Sergeant Major.

*2nd.—Bandmaster.

3rd.—Quarter-Master Sergeant.

*4th.— Sergeant Instructor of Musketry.

2nd Class Staff Sergeants.

5th.— Paymaster's Clerk.

*6th.—Armourer Sergeant.

7th.— Hospital Sergeant.

8th.—Orderly Room Clerk.

*9th.— Pipe or Bugle Major (Sgt Drummer or Sgt Piper).

*10th.— Sergeant Cook.

*11th.—Pioneer Sergeant




12th.— Colour Sergeants, who rank with 2nd Class Staff Sergeants (but who are not in that grouping), and take precedence according to date of appointment.


13th.— Sergeants, according to date of appointment.

14th.—Corporals, ditto

Lance Sergeants' and Lance Corporals, where the duty is heavy, may be appointed, who will rank after Sergeants and Corporals respectively.





#23 Andrew Upton

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Posted 09 September 2011 - 06:50 PM

I am not talking about fantasy regulations I am talking about the real thing, something that I am quite familiar with given that their style and method of issue has not changed a great deal until very recently.


The ones I know of that were in error were everybit as official as the "War Illustrated"... the simple fact is sources such as these were primarily aimed at the public, not the military, and my point of being wary of them until they have proved themselves still stands.

#24 truthergw

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Posted 09 September 2011 - 06:59 PM

Steve, no one else has picked up your query. I can only say that in my time, I had a cap badge albeit in a blue bonnet. My day to day TOS had simply a red hackle. Anyway, it was referred to as a cap badge not a bonnet badge.

#25 Tom A McCluskey

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Posted 09 September 2011 - 07:10 PM

Frogsmile,

Sorry to be a pedant, but the glaring error on the ‘definitive information from the contemporary War Illustrated of 1915’ is that it has the Royal Scots wearing a solid blue Glengarry when, in fact, they wore a diced Glengarry bonnet.

Aye,

Tom McC