17 replies to this topic

[corisande]

An odd tale this.

In May 1921, two British soldiers who had been captured by the IRA near Charleville in Cork, executed and secretly buried.  According to the British army they had deserted to join a travelling circus.

Remembering the War Dead. Fergus D’Arcy . 0n May 1921 two British soldiers from the Machine Gun Corps who had been captured by the I.R.A. near Charleville in Cork, executed and secretly buried – had according to the British Military deserted to join a travelling circus! They had been quartered in the RIC barracks and had become friendly with local girls. It was on returning from a visit to the girls that they were kidnapped one night. D'Arcy goes on to say that they were shot and buried two miles from Charleville, and that their bodies were discovered accidentally by a local farmer in 1951 and reburied without names in the grounds of Charleville Holy Cross Cemetery Extension, and a headstone put there for them in 1953

D'Arcy (p50 if you have the book) says that they were re-interred in this graveyard, and that the find had been reported to CWGC. I am unclear if the CWGC supports this grave and it has no names, or whether the tombstone is one supplied locally

Either way it would appear that the names of the 2 MGC men are not known. I have put a post on Rootschat to see if I can find anyone locally to look for the grave in Charleville, but have not had a taker so far.

Can anyone help here with a photo of the nameless grave. or any more info on these men

[chrisharley9]

None on Brookwood for MGC that come anywhere near those dates

Chris

[corisande]

Thanks, the wording of D'Arcy is such that I thought CWGC had turned down support for it, but I could not be sure.

I have put out a number of feelers to see if I can get a photo of the actual gravestone in Charleville.

[corisande]

It does exist, if one trawls CWGC for that graveyard in Charleville you get this

http://www.cwgc.org/...=2076728&mode=1

"There are 4 Commonwealth burials of the 1914-1918 war here, 2 of which are unidentified soldiers of the Machine Gun Corps, 1921. The unidentified are together in one grave in the South-East corner. There is also 1 non world war burial."

It seems unfathomable that nobody can work out who they were - my guess is that they were put down as deserters originally. "The Year of Disappearances" gives a list on p336 of Pre-Truce absentees from British Troops in Ireland from official documents and nobody is listed under MGC.

I assume therefore that one would need a list of deserters, but I am not sure how to go about getting that.

[izzy]

Using the regiment and year as a guide would it not be possible to find them using the Army death indexes in the G.R.O. Cant be many M.G.C casualties for 1921.

[corisande]

My understanding is that, as far as the army was concerned, they were not dead, but had deserted. So they would not appear on any death register for that year.

[truthergw]

If I have read the piece correctly, they may have been listed as missing in 1921. The press cutting is a little strange. Normally, men would be absent without leave for something like 3 weeks before they were posted as deserters. Length of time absent was not the only criterion for AWOL to become desertion but it was an important contribution and I have never heard of an assumption of desertion within a few days.

[corisande]

My feeling is that they were only officially posted "missing" at that point by the British.

However the piece is from Freemans Journal, which had a direct line to IRA, so it could well have been that the paper had been informed by the IRA that the men had been picked up claiming to be deserters

The really bizarre bit to me is the British later claiming that the men had deserted to join a travelling circus that had been in Charleville. I need to go through local papers to see if there was a circus in Charleville that week

I have this thread on the Ireland sub forum to try to find how deserters were recorded in Ireland. And that has turned up a photo of the gravestone in Charleville that a forum member was kind enough to photograph today

[Terry Denham]

Men officially declared deserters when they died do not qualify for CWGC commemoration. Those only declared officially AWOL would.

If they were declared deserters and were recaptured before death, they would qualify once again.

[corisande]

Quote

Men officially declared deserters when they died do not qualify for CWGC commemoration. Those only declared officially AWOL would.  

So the implication is that these 2 MGC men were AWOL officially? But also officially nobody seems to know who the bodies are (no names on CWGC grave) - in which case officially nobody knows if they were deserters or not (a bit convoluted, but you can see what I am driving at)

As far as I can see 2 men went AWOL in Charleville and were never found
Pan forward 30 years and two MGC bodies are found and are buried without names at Charleville
The balance of probability is that they are the same 2 men

I have not personally been through Dept of Defence Papers MA A/07304, but "The Year of the Disappearances" includes a from them a list of Cork only Pre-Truce absentees from British Troops in Ireland (p336) and there are no MGC men on it

Do I stand a snowflakes chance in hell of finding who they were?

[munster]

I have come to think since first coming across this thread that at the time there was more than two men awol or deserters call them what you will.Two get picked up by ira two(or even one)other desert and get away with it. Who was who.I beleive the army knew who was missing but did not know who the ira had.john

[PFF]

Hope the following is helpful http://www.machinegu...uk/history.html

Also http://www.machine-g...intro_page.html
Charges for research

[corisande]

I have not got much further with identifying them. This little snippet is from one of the Witness Statements

WS 0754. During this month [Jan 1921] the M.G. Corps, stationed in Charleville, were sent to Ballyvonare and replaced by another contingent. Two of the M.G. Sergeants, who had made themselves rather notorious during their time in Charleville, were being eagerly sought. These Sergeants were named Slack and Toohey - the latter was an Irishman and was easily the worst of the two. Resulting from information, Mick Geary and a few lay in wait for them, about miles from Charleville. Slack and Toohey were on their way back from Charleville and both were armed. Slack preceded Toohey by from 50 to 100 yards. Slack was captured and disarmed, but Toohey got away. Had Toohey been caught it was intended to, shoot him.......[Jun 1921] Two British soldiers, in uniform, were captured on the Newmarket road just outside Charleville - they had a map of the district in their possession. At their trial they admitted they were on intelligence duties. They were executed and died very bravely. Their one request was, if they were to be shot, to have the job done quickly.

And my notes on the whole incident - click for notes -  I feel that eventually there will be enough snippets to identify the 2 men, but it will take time.

[Blackblue]

What about this bloke?

FULLER, JOHN WILLIAM

Rank: Corporal Service No: 45345 Date of Death: 12/02/1921 Age: 29 Regiment/Service: Machine Gun Corps Panel Reference Memorial UNITED KINGDOM BOOK OF REMEMBRANCE

[chrisharley9]

Cannot really comment about Fuller as he was not an IFCP case but if you look at the Cambridgeshire ROH site Burwell page he is buried at Burwell

Cheers

Chris

[Blackblue]

Just found his death as well Chris,
I have just read what the CWGC Book of Remembrance is, for those whose graves have not been located. Do we need to tell CWGC or does is mean they don't know where it is at Burwell? He was only only MGC listed for 1921 without a grave, so thought I may be onto something!

Rgds

Tim

[chrisharley9]

Tim

the UK BOR is just a holding commemoration whilst CWGC investigate the grave site; I would say they already know where he is buried

Cheers

Chris

[Blackblue]

Cheers Chris.