Jump to content


Remembered Today:

Photo

Croix de Guerre - citations?


35 replies to this topic

#1 coldm

coldm

    Second Lieutenant

  • Old Sweats
  • 123 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location: County Durham

Posted 27 September 2011 - 02:37 PM

Hi

Could anyone tell me if citations were written/published for the British soldiers who received the Croix de Guerre. Private J. Nimmo 4/8393 serving with the Durham Light Infantry was awarded the Croix de Guerre on 24/02/1914 and Iím trying to find out why he was awarded the medal.

Regards

Coldm

#2 auchonvillerssomme

auchonvillerssomme

    Lieut-General

  • Old Sweats
  • 10,034 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Eames chair
  • Interests:First World War in general, Somme specifically. War memorials and losses.

Posted 27 September 2011 - 02:42 PM

I'm guessing that date is incorrect.

#3 auchonvillerssomme

auchonvillerssomme

    Lieut-General

  • Old Sweats
  • 10,034 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Eames chair
  • Interests:First World War in general, Somme specifically. War memorials and losses.

Posted 27 September 2011 - 02:45 PM

His DCM. SUPPLEMENT TO THE LONDON GAZETTE, 14 JANUARY, 1916. 607

4/8393 Private J. Nimmo, 2nd Battalion,
Durham Light Infantry.

4/8393 Private J. Nimmo, 2nd Battalion,
Durham Light Infantry.
For conspicuous gallantry. The battalion
was resting in a field, when the enemy
started shelling the field with shrapnel.
An officer was wounded, and the men
were told to scatter and obtain cover.
Private Nimmo went to the assistance of
the wounded officer, bandaged him in the
open, and then carried him about 100 yards
to cover.

cant find CdeG yet

#4 auchonvillerssomme

auchonvillerssomme

    Lieut-General

  • Old Sweats
  • 10,034 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Eames chair
  • Interests:First World War in general, Somme specifically. War memorials and losses.

Posted 27 September 2011 - 02:53 PM

2070 SUPPLEMENT TO THE LONDON GAZETTE, 24 FEBRUARY, 1916
The President of the French Republic has
bestowed the decoration " Croix de Guerre "
on the undermentioned Officers, Warrant
Officers, Non-Commissioned Officers and Men,
in recognition of their distinguished service
. during the campaign : ó

4/8393 Private Joseph Nimmo, 2nd Battalion,
Durham Light Infantry.

I would propose he was nominated because he was awarded the DCM

#5 coldm

coldm

    Second Lieutenant

  • Old Sweats
  • 123 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location: County Durham

Posted 28 September 2011 - 08:31 PM

Hi auchonvillerssomme

Thanks for replying to my post. I have the DCM citation and was wondering if their was a similar citation for the Croix de Guerre. As you suggested, it looks like he may have been nominated because he had been awarded the DCM.

Regards

Geoff

#6 old owl

old owl

    Major-General

  • Old Sweats
  • 3,235 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:West Yorkshire, uk

Posted 28 September 2011 - 09:58 PM

Hi Geoff,

If you have a copy of "When the Lantern of Hope Burned Low", on pages 86/87 there are citations for three Croix de Guerres awarded to Lt.Col.Gibson,D.S.O.; L/Cpl M.O'Brien and Pte A.Daniels of the 4th Bn North'd.Fus. for the action on 27th May,1918, when this battalion took a real battering.

Croix de Guerre with Palms. Lt.Col.B.D.Gibson, D.S.O.

"This officer was in command of his battalion, which was holding the front line trenches, on 27th May,1918, in the Aisne sector. He continued to send information of the enemy's advance until his Headquarters was completely surrounded. He then collected all available men of his H.Q. party, and although attacked on three sides it was due to this officer's personal example and total disregard of danger that the enemy were delayed in their advance for a considerable time. He was shot through the head and killed whilst standing on the parapet to get a better view of the enemy, who at that time were advancing up a communication trench."

This citation was certainly never published in the London Gazette, but this shows that recommendations or citations must have existed at the time--but where these are now and how one can access them---I do not know. They may have been destroyed at sometime?


The fighting citations for the two soldiers are also for the 27th May,1918, however neither man appears to have been awarded any other gallantry medal(DCM,MM or similar) for this action.

Hope this helps,

Robert

#7 gunner parr

gunner parr

    Lieutenant

  • Old Sweats
  • 161 posts

Posted 28 September 2011 - 11:56 PM

Citations for the award of the Croix de Guerre avec palmes to British (and other foreign) soldiers were published (in French) in the Journal Officiel during the war. Copies of the Journal available on-line only go back as far as the late 1940s but some large libraries in the UK have bound copies for 1914-1918 though I have yet to see one with an index. Less than 5% of Croix de Guerre awarded to British soldiers were awarded avec palmes (representing a mention in Army orders) so the numbers of citations is small. I believe the French Ministere des Affaires Etrangeres has recommendations/citations for all awards but I have never received a reply from them on enquiring. Hope this helps.

#8 old owl

old owl

    Major-General

  • Old Sweats
  • 3,235 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:West Yorkshire, uk

Posted 29 September 2011 - 07:29 AM

Citations for the award of the Croix de Guerre avec palmes to British (and other foreign) soldiers were published (in French) in the Journal Officiel during the war. Copies of the Journal available on-line only go back as far as the late 1940s but some large libraries in the UK have bound copies for 1914-1918 though I have yet to see one with an index. Less than 5% of Croix de Guerre awarded to British soldiers were awarded avec palmes (representing a mention in Army orders) so the numbers of citations is small. I believe the French Ministere des Affaires Etrangeres has recommendations/citations for all awards but I have never received a reply from them on enquiring. Hope this helps.



Hi GP,

The two o/rs mentioned in the book who received the C de G were awarded this with the Gold Star, so perhaps some of these had citations published as well?

Robert

#9 gunner parr

gunner parr

    Lieutenant

  • Old Sweats
  • 161 posts

Posted 29 September 2011 - 12:52 PM

I could not find the two Privates in my photocopies of citations in the Journal Officiel- not surprising considering they did not get mentioned in Army orders - but also could not find Lieutenant Colonel Gibson, who should have been there. As I said, I don't think indexes were prepared so I am not sure I have all the citations. I have attached a sample from the Journal.

Attached Files



#10 coldm

coldm

    Second Lieutenant

  • Old Sweats
  • 123 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location: County Durham

Posted 30 September 2011 - 08:07 AM

Hi Old Owl and Gunner Parr

Thanks for the information. I think my best chance of finding out more will be to trawl through the local newspapers. I know where the soldier was from and he may have received a mention.

From previous posts, I understand that there was a delay of a few months between the actual event and the award being published. 2 DLI were heavily engaged at Hooge on 09/08/1915, but the DCM citation doesnít seem to suggest that he won the DCM or C de G there. It reads more like his company/platoon was coming in or out of the line when they were caught in the open by artillery fire. I have 2 DLIís war diary and several officers were wounded after Hooge, but trying to pinpoint the actual incident is proving very tricky.

Hopefully Iíll find something in the local newspaper.

Geoff.

#11 Sharpshooter

Sharpshooter

    Lieutenant

  • Old Sweats
  • 186 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Earl Soham, Suffolk

Posted 28 January 2012 - 10:57 AM

I could not find the two Privates in my photocopies of citations in the Journal Officiel- not surprising considering they did not get mentioned in Army orders - but also could not find Lieutenant Colonel Gibson, who should have been there. As I said, I don't think indexes were prepared so I am not sure I have all the citations. I have attached a sample from the Journal.


I am researching a WW1 survivor, Captain Edward R Pennel(l) DFC, Croix de Guerre with Bronze Palm (France) of RNAS and RFC. I have tried the London Gazette for his commission, promotion and awards, so far without success, and picked up your post from searching the forum. His family has his medals group which shows service in both wars as well as the KGVI Coronation Medal. From your post it seems unlikely but any help you can give me would be much appreciated.

Regards,

Chris.

#12 ForeignGong

ForeignGong

    Lieut-Colonel

  • Old Sweats
  • 636 posts

Posted 28 January 2012 - 11:30 AM

I am researching a WW1 survivor, Captain Edward R Pennel(l) DFC, Croix de Guerre with Bronze Palm (France) of RNAS and RFC. I have tried the London Gazette for his commission, promotion and awards, so far without success, and picked up your post from searching the forum. His family has his medals group which shows service in both wars as well as the KGVI Coronation Medal. From your post it seems unlikely but any help you can give me would be much appreciated.

Regards,

Chris.


Hi Chris
Try these

CdG http://www.london-ga...Pennell/start=1

Plus others

http://www.london-ga...Pennell/start=1

His 1937 Coro is listed as

Pennell, Edward Robert (Flight Comdr. DFC) Member of Essex County Car Park Committee

Peter

#13 auchonvillerssomme

auchonvillerssomme

    Lieut-General

  • Old Sweats
  • 10,034 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Eames chair
  • Interests:First World War in general, Somme specifically. War memorials and losses.

Posted 28 January 2012 - 11:32 AM

His DFC was gazetted 3/6/1918 page 6520

#14 Sharpshooter

Sharpshooter

    Lieutenant

  • Old Sweats
  • 186 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Earl Soham, Suffolk

Posted 28 January 2012 - 04:49 PM

Hi Chris
Try these

CdG http://www.london-ga...Pennell/start=1

Plus others

http://www.london-ga...Pennell/start=1

His 1937 Coro is listed as

Pennell, Edward Robert (Flight Comdr. DFC) Member of Essex County Car Park Committee

Peter


Peter,

Many thanks. This is most useful. Your first link to the LG starts CdG but I could find no reference to the CdG. Have I missed something?

Chris

#15 Sharpshooter

Sharpshooter

    Lieutenant

  • Old Sweats
  • 186 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Earl Soham, Suffolk

Posted 28 January 2012 - 04:52 PM

His DFC was gazetted 3/6/1918 page 6520


Thanks also for this. Whatever I tried to input into the LG search I just got hundreds of options which I did not manage to reduce by refining the search.

Chris.

#16 azureus

azureus

    Lieut-Colonel

  • Old Sweats
  • 725 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:seal nr sevenoaks kent

Posted 28 January 2012 - 05:31 PM

they are out there , im lucky enough to have an original , buy iy was also written up in a local paper so maybe worth looking there too
regards dave

ps if you do find one im sure foreign gong would like to hear from you :thumbsup:

Attached Files



#17 auchonvillerssomme

auchonvillerssomme

    Lieut-General

  • Old Sweats
  • 10,034 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Eames chair
  • Interests:First World War in general, Somme specifically. War memorials and losses.

Posted 28 January 2012 - 05:53 PM

Chris, you probably know this but just in case, he has several mentions in 'Flight'.



http://www.flightglo...=1922&x=65&y=16

#18 ForeignGong

ForeignGong

    Lieut-Colonel

  • Old Sweats
  • 636 posts

Posted 29 January 2012 - 02:50 AM

Peter,

Many thanks. This is most useful. Your first link to the LG starts CdG but I could find no reference to the CdG. Have I missed something?

Chris


Sorry I cut & paste wrong one

http://www.london-ga...upplements/7095


Peter

#19 Sharpshooter

Sharpshooter

    Lieutenant

  • Old Sweats
  • 186 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Earl Soham, Suffolk

Posted 29 January 2012 - 12:41 PM

they are out there , im lucky enough to have an original , buy iy was also written up in a local paper so maybe worth looking there too
regards dave

ps if you do find one im sure foreign gong would like to hear from you :thumbsup:


Will keep looking! Thanks

#20 Sharpshooter

Sharpshooter

    Lieutenant

  • Old Sweats
  • 186 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Earl Soham, Suffolk

Posted 29 January 2012 - 12:46 PM

Chris, you probably know this but just in case, he has several mentions in 'Flight'.



http://www.flightglo...=1922&x=65&y=16


I am sure that this is all new to the family. They will be delighted. I need to go through everything to try and work out the RNAS/RFC connection.

Thanks again,

Chris.




#21 Sharpshooter

Sharpshooter

    Lieutenant

  • Old Sweats
  • 186 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Earl Soham, Suffolk

Posted 29 January 2012 - 12:48 PM

Sorry I cut & paste wrong one

http://www.london-ga...upplements/7095


Peter


Peter,

Many thanks. Now downloaded. If I ever do find the citation I will be in touch.

Regards,

Chris.




#22 Chris_Baker

Chris_Baker

    General

  • Old Sweat
  • 13,836 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Warwickshire UK

Posted 29 January 2012 - 12:52 PM

A rarity, I think, but I once found some CdeG citations in a British war diary. Here is an example from that diary:

Posted Image

#23 Roger H

Roger H

    Brigadier-General

  • Old Sweats
  • 2,401 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Birmingham
  • Interests:311th Brigade RFA. The salient from Boezinge to Ploegsteert and the Arras area. Moseley Rugby Club. British real ale and Belgian Beer.

Posted 29 January 2012 - 01:08 PM

Here is a certified copy of my Grandfather's avec palme citation

Roger

Attached Files



#24 ForeignGong

ForeignGong

    Lieut-Colonel

  • Old Sweats
  • 636 posts

Posted 29 January 2012 - 02:01 PM

I can not read French, but all the citations that I have read (in English), have proven to me that foreign awards were given in lieu of imperial awards, that were not available at the time due to lack of awards to be handed out. I have seen in Australian records that imperial awards were rationed with so few to be handed out that CO's would rely on the foreign ones to make sure that deserving soldiers were recognised.

Most times foreign awards are very rare if compared to imperial ones.

Peter

#25 Sharpshooter

Sharpshooter

    Lieutenant

  • Old Sweats
  • 186 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Earl Soham, Suffolk

Posted 29 January 2012 - 02:27 PM

Here is a certified copy of my Grandfather's avec palme citation

Roger


Roger,

I might try that address and see what happens. Thanks, again, to everyone for their help.

Regards,

Chris.