Translation of poster needed, Poster taken down when Jerusalem fell Options

[Swni]

My grandfather William John Trace was one of the first into Jerusalem and I am in possession of a poster which he was ordered to take down when Jerusalem fell. I have no idea what is on it as it is in Arabic or maybe Turkish. I am wondering if anyone has any idea what the poster may be and where I could get it translated. I have photocopied it because the original is so old it is now falling apart.

Sue

[Dragon]

..

This post has been edited by Dragon: Sep 23 2004, 12:43 PM

[Swni]

Hi there Gwyn

It would be great if you could get it translated - I have several photocopies - would it be possible to post one to you?

Sue

[Winter]

I've got Turkish work mates I can ask

George

[Swni]

Thanks George - it would be greatly appreciated.

Sue

[Winter]

Can you scan it and send per e-mail?

George

[Swni]

I am not the worlds most successful scanner and its taken me several attempts to get it to a size that will send...so I have had to crop some of it out..but if your friend could have a look at what I have send and see if it is translatable, that would be wonderful.

Many thanks

Sue

Attached File(s)

 2Cropped_Poster_from_Jerusalem__WW1.jpg ( 0bytes ) Number of downloads: 0

 

[michaeldr]

Sue,

It is fascinating that your family have been able to keep this souvenir for so long. When you get the translation, perhaps you can share it and the poster with the rest of the Pals

Looking forward to seeing it

Michael D.R.

[Swni]

Hi there Michael

My mother has the original copy safely tucked away - it is very fragile but yes it is wonderful that we have it. Unfortunately, my grandfather would not talk about the war, he said it was too horrible for our ears and he would only tell us stories about the funny things that happened.

Therefore, I am trying hard to find out which regiment etc he was in and exactly where he served and what battles he was in. We do know he was in France at first and sailed from Marseille to Egypt and was one of the first into Jerusalem. Eventually sailing home again in 1918/19 from Alexandria. The trouble is I know nothing about the military and so am having to learn it all as I go along and am getting a little baffled by it all - so many regiments /divisions/ units etc!!!

Anyway thanks for your interest, I most certainly will share the translation with you all if I manage to get it. I am so excited about the responses I am getting both regarding this poster and with other questions I have posted. I only found the site two days ago! Its amazing!

Sue

[Winter]

That is definitely arabic. Can't help there

George

[Kate Wills]

The 2/20 Londons of 60th Division claimed to be the first unit to enter Jerusalem, and one member of the unit related the almost farcical course of events that culminated in the Mayor surrendering the city to British forces. If I remember correctly, the Mayor first asked two cooks if they would accept the surrender. They declined saying that someone more senior should do so, and went off in search of same. A sergeant arrived, and did likewise. Eventually, someone with sufficiently elevated rank shook hands with the Mayor and accepted.

I get this lovely mental picture of a British-style mayor swathed in scarlet robes, scroll in hand, standing folorn amid a succession of khaki-clad jobsworths.

[Swni]

That is a great story and it sure does conjure up a real jobsworth picture eh?

My Grandfather was from South Wales and so I dont think he would have been with the 2/20 Londons of the 60th Division. But I do remember him saying that he was one of the first into Jerusalem though...maybe another division went in at almost the same time? I am not clued up enough on it all yet - I am very new to military research having only started on Sunday!! But I am learning fast!!

Thanks for your input!

Sue

[Swni]

Thanks for trying George - maybe now its on here someone else will be able to translate it.

Sue

[michaeldr]

For Kate & Sue,

The att. photograph is dated 9th Dec 1917 and it shows the Mayor of Jerusalem, his white flag of surrender and Sgts F. G. Hurcomb and J Sedgewick of the 60th (London) Div.[their regiment is not stated]
The photograph is from B. Z. Kedar’s ‘The Changing Land Between the Jordan and the Sea’ and as far as I can make out from the author’s notes the picture is credited to the Yad Izhak Ben Zvi archive in Jerusalem.
The flag is now held by the IWM in London. It was made from a bedsheet and had the Arabic inscription “The mayor of Jerusalem the noble, Hussein Hashem al-Husseini, 9 December 1917”

Regards
Michael D.R.

Attached File(s)

 JerusalemSurrender.jpg ( 0bytes ) Number of downloads: 0

 

[Swni]

Thats brilliant Michael and thank you for sending it. If my grandfather wasnt with 60th London Div (which I am pretty sure he wasnt as he was Welsh) I know that he was right on their heals because he told us he was one of the first in.

Sue

[Dragon]

..

This post has been edited by Dragon: Sep 23 2004, 12:41 PM

[Swni]

Many thanks Gwyn - this is great news!

I have received your email and will post a photocopy of the poster today.

Look forward to hearing from you.

Sue

[Dragon]

..

This post has been edited by Dragon: Sep 23 2004, 12:42 PM

[Thomas]

If he was welsh probably in the 53rd Welsh Division.

[Dragon]

To add to Michael’s commentary on his photo:

Martin Gilbert states that Sgts Hurcomb and Sedgewick are of the 2/19th Battalion, London Regiment. The flag of truce is being brought by the Mayor, who has the walking stick and the Chief of Police, who is on the far right. He credits Hanna Safieh as the source for the photo.

Two days later, Allenby made his official entry into the city.

Martin Gilbert: "Jerusalem: Illustrated History Atlas"

The Atlas was published in conjunction with the Board of Deputies of British Jews and it is specifically about Jerusalem. (I obtained it at the Manchester Jewish Museum in Cheetham Hill – well worth a visit.) It has an interesting range of photos and, obviously, maps, starting with 70 AD.

This post has been edited by Dragon: Sep 23 2004, 12:45 PM

[michaeldr]

Gwyn,

Many thanks for the extra details re the surrender photograph
I shall keep an eye open for the Gilbert History Atlas

I can add that the name of the police chief was Haj Abd al-Kadir al-Alami.
He and the mayor had been left in charge as the Ottoman governor had already retreated to Damascus. I believe that that city was the provincial capital at the time and Jerusalem pretty much a back-water. This may also account for the Syrian version of the script having been used in Sue’s poster.

Jill Hamilton’s book ‘God, Guns and Israel’ repeats Kate’s story about the cooks who she says were either looking for eggs, or for a well; apparently there are seven or more versions of this tale. She also says that after meeting the Sergeants, the civic party was passed on to Brigadier General C. F. Watson of 180th Brigade who in turn had to give back they keys to the city so that the mayor could present them in a dignified manner to Lieutenant General J. M. S. Shea, the commander of 60th Division

Just to complete the details Hamilton informs that the flag [sheet] came from a bed in the hospital run by Bertha Spafford Vester, the daughter of the founder of the American Colony [the latter is today a famous hotel and watering hole, popular with western journalists] The att picture of the flag was taken by Benjamin Z. Kedar and appears in his previously mentioned book

Regards
Michael D.R.

Attached File(s)

 JerusalemSurrenderFlag.jpg ( 0bytes ) Number of downloads: 0

 

[Swni]

Thanks to all of you for your input it really is very interesting hearing all you have to say.

Gwyn I would love to see some of the photos when you have time. Its quite facinating. How odd that your friend found his name on the poster!!

Thomas - thanks for that - I had been searching through the various divisions and the 53rd Welsh did look a likely one so I will go and see what I can find out about it.

Michael - all of this information is putting flesh on the bones of the story and this is what I want. In doing my family tree I do not just want names, dates and so on - I want stories and personalities also so that people in years to come can see what these charactors were really like. This information is helping tremendously.

Thanks all of you.

Sue

[Matthew King]

I was wondering if I too could request a translation of an Aradic document in my Grandfathers belonging, I don't have a clue what it is about. Would be very happy to Email document to anyone who could help thanks

Matt

[redbarchetta]

Matt / Sue
It seems bizarre, given these things were only written 90 years ago, but it is very difficult to find someone who can actually translate stuff from WW1 era Palestine - I have some trench art with inlaid Arab script which I wanted translating. Eventually sent it to a Mullah, who has contacts with Islamic scholars etc etc and who swore blind 'it wouldn't be a problem' - never heard from him again !!! I am interested to see if Gwyn's contacts have more luck than I did !!!
Jim

[Swni]

Oh Gwyn

I hadn't thought of that!!

I DO hope not (giggle) after all the trouble you've gone to and all the anticipation!!

Sue