Jump to content


Remembered Today:

Photo

British soldiers shot in Ireland following Court Martial


32 replies to this topic

#26 corona

corona

    Second Lieutenant

  • Old Sweats
  • 114 posts

Posted 20 November 2011 - 10:50 AM

Hi Corisande,
Could this be your man?
9588 PTE. JOHN WINSLEY LEINSTER REGT.
Attested 6/71911 Born 1893 St.Finbars Cork.
A town labourer with previous service in the 4th Batt.R.M.FUS. (Militia?)
Next of Kin Susan (mother) Mary(sister)of 2 Grafton St. Cork.
Discharged Free 19/1/1912 by an entry I am unfamilier with.
His service record can be found on FIND MY PAST
.Hope this helps a little with the mystery.
Regards,
corona.

#27 corisande

corisande

    Major-General

  • Old Sweats
  • 3,357 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Spain
  • Interests:The Royal Dublin Fusiliers in general and 10th Battalion in particular.and I probably should add "Irish Brigade" and "Cairo Gang" and "The Auxiliaries"

Posted 20 November 2011 - 11:09 AM

Thanks Corona, that is certainly him in yet another guise in the British Army.

1. Munsters 4th Battalion

2. Jul 1911 to Jan 1912 in Leinsters. AS you say his discharge is not a common one, and I cannot find out what it i, can anyone say what this discharge actually is for ( I suspect it is medical)
Posted Image

3. Aug 1912 to Sep 1915 in RGA

4. Disappears from records. I suspect he is back in British Army

5. Reappears in Irish Civil War 1922 Sep. executed by sentence of Court Martial in Cork Gaol.

#28 corona

corona

    Second Lieutenant

  • Old Sweats
  • 114 posts

Posted 20 November 2011 - 03:18 PM

Corisande,
The SILVER WAR BADGE details exist for 196734/355171 SPR. BERNARD WINSLEY ROYAL ENGINEERS (INLAND WATERWAYS AND DOCKS)
Served between 8/8/1916 to28/3/1919 and served Overseas. Age recorded as24? Discharged due to sickness.
Like you, I could find no civil records of any kind for this man, any where in mainland Britain or Ireland.
Could this be another piece of the jig-saw in the John Winsley story?
Regards,
corona.

#29 corisande

corisande

    Major-General

  • Old Sweats
  • 3,357 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Spain
  • Interests:The Royal Dublin Fusiliers in general and 10th Battalion in particular.and I probably should add "Irish Brigade" and "Cairo Gang" and "The Auxiliaries"

Posted 20 November 2011 - 03:43 PM

Thanks

Yes I agree that this has to be John/Bernard Winsley. The earlier contributions to the this thread established from comparing 1901 and 1911 censuses that clearly they are the same bloke.

I assume he altered his name to get back into the army. He exemplifies a type who were serial enlisters in WW1

I have added your inputs to his details on this link - click, and have put in the MIC for the chap in this RE incarnation

Interesting how Ancestry have not "joined up" SWB to their main index. If you just search for "Bernard Winsley" in their "search all" box, it only comes up with the MIC and not the SWB. Note to self to check SWB when conducting Ancestry searches !

#30 Michael Pegum

Michael Pegum

    Lieut-Colonel

  • Old Sweats
  • 690 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Dublin, Ireland

Posted 20 November 2011 - 04:35 PM

There is a memorial on the wall of Cork City Gaol listing executions between 17th October, 1920 and 13th March, 1923 (See Cork City Gaol. A transcription, as a pdf, can be opened).

The names are in Irish, which makes it less clear, but none of them is a John or Bernard Winsley. They were all I.R.A. Volunteers (i.e., the Republican, or anti-Treaty side), so he definitely was not one of them. He must have been a Free State soldier, or the date you have may be wrong.

#31 corisande

corisande

    Major-General

  • Old Sweats
  • 3,357 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Spain
  • Interests:The Royal Dublin Fusiliers in general and 10th Battalion in particular.and I probably should add "Irish Brigade" and "Cairo Gang" and "The Auxiliaries"

Posted 20 November 2011 - 04:57 PM

I concede that the date of his execution may be wrong, but at the moment all I have to go on to confirm that he was executed is from "Who's who in the Irish War of Independence and Civil War " by Padraic O'Farrell who on page 225 in a chapter on "Civil War Executions" gives Bernard Winsley as being executed in Cork County Prison in Sep 1922 ( the list gives 80 men executed in total under that heading)

The only other Cork executions on his list is William Healy in Mar 1923.

I assume that if Winsley had been executed for a criminal offense (for example murder) then he would not have featured on that war memorial. Or, as you say had he been a Free State Soldier shot by the Republicans for military reasons he would not be there either.

From memory (I have no knowledge of the Civil War) it was about that time that the Free State troops landed in Cork.

#32 Michael Pegum

Michael Pegum

    Lieut-Colonel

  • Old Sweats
  • 690 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Dublin, Ireland

Posted 20 November 2011 - 09:59 PM

"The only other Cork executions on his list is William Healy in Mar 1923."

William Healy is on the list at the Gaol, as having been executed there. The others died of wounds, or were executed elsewhere.

"I assume that if Winsley had been executed for a criminal offense (for example murder) then he would not have featured on that war memorial."

I agree. I think that, if Bernard Winsley had committed murder, he would have been tried in a civil criminal court, and hanged. It shouldn't have counted as a Civil War execution

"From memory (I have no knowledge of the Civil War) it was about that time that the Free State troops landed in Cork."

They landed on 8th August, and had control of the city by the next day.

If the Republican side had counted him as one of their own, I would have thought his name would have appeared in their memorials and literature. It would follow that he was a Free State soldier who was executed at the time by the State authorities, possibly for murder or possibly for treason (i.e. acting as a spy).

Your next step, if you want to follow this further, will be the archives of the newspapers at the time. Do let us know what you find.

Michael

#33 gaelgoir

gaelgoir

    Second Lieutenant

  • Old Sweats
  • 103 posts

Posted 04 February 2012 - 05:07 PM

I checked both Irish Times and Freeman's Journal this morning and can find no mention of Winsley. Free State civil war executions (the 77) did not commence until November 1922. There was a breakout from Cork Prison by Republican irregulars in September 1922 and also a protest with prisoners remaining in the yard. During this a prisoner was shot but there was no name given.

This is quite a mystery - the only Forces execution during the troubles was the Black and Tan (policeman) hanged in Mountjoy in June 1921 for the Murder of a JP in Wicklow. His co murderer comitted suicide before he was aprehended. The Aulilliary who murdered the priest and a boy in Cork was locked up as insane. The Aulilliary smith tried for the murder of two men in Drumcondra was acquitted on some pretext,