45 replies to this topic

[Moonraker]

I've been sent a scan of a magnificent photo of staff of the "Canadian hospital Larkhill 1914" with each member named. (Incidentally the original was taken by a German photographer, Rosener, who assumed the identity of a Dane until he was rumbled and imprisoned.) Actually the men belong to No 1 Field Ambulance of the First Canadian Contingent.My eye was caught by this man wearing what I assume to be four stripes denoting 18 years Good Conduct.

 Harvey.jpg   78.62K   8 downloads

He looks  young to have had that amount of service, presumably with the British Army. (A majority of the Contingent were British immigrants, many with military service.) He is named as F Murphy, and a man of that name appears in the November 1914 roll of the Contingent as a member of No 1 Field Ambulance, with the number 32975. Sadly the only 32975 I can trace in the attestation papers is a William Rees and none of the F Murphy's check out.(There are all sorts of anomalies like this in the roll and attestation papers.)

I would think it unusual for a member of the First Contingent(the vast majority being recruited from civilians and militia) to be entitled to four stripes and had he won these in the British Army I suppose that the Canadians took his word for it, as they would not have had the time to check it out.

Of course I might have missed something that's obvious to one or two of you. Your bright suggestions are invited.


Moonraker

[Andrew Upton]

They are on the wrong sleeve for LSGC stripes. Given his positioning next to a cuff-ranked Officer and what would appear to be a cloth drum badge worn above another badge over his stripes, I would hazzard that he is a Sergeant Drummer (based on some of the illustrations Grumpy has posted in the past which would fit the 1914 date). Certainly a reasonably senior NCO at the very least.

[Graham Stewart]

I think you may find it's a small star at the top, which would make hime a 'quartermaster sgt'.

[Moonraker]

I think that Graham has got it and I had missed something that was obvious, to wit that the stripes are on the wrong arm! The names are given in white on the left and right hand sides of the photograph and some are quite hard to make out. I'd read no 19 as being "Pte F Murphy" but looking at it again it does look like "Qu" (for quartermaster). And my mis-reading was compounded by the fact that there is a Pte F Murphy listed with No 1 Field Ambulance in early November. As it happens, the only quartermaster sergeant with the unit then was John B Owens, but perhaps he had been replaced by the time the photograph was taken (in December, I would guess).

Of the 32 men in the photo, eight are wearing lanyards on their left shoulders with two, including Murphy, having them on the right. His seems to be thicker than the others.

It's a great photograph, but I can't post it in full as the original isn't mine and also it's very wide.

Thanks for the comments.

Moonraker

[133.R]

I think the good conduct stripes  are on the right arm if the image is mirrored?

The soldiers wear the lanyard on the wrong  shoulder.

Regards Sven

[FROGSMILE]

I concur with Graham that he is a (Regimental or Battalion level) Quartermaster Sergeant, whose badge of 4 inverted chevrons surmounted by a star was quite distinctive.  The positioning of the lanyards is incidental, as although generally worn on the left shoulder in the British Army, in the early part of the war it was common to see odd irregularities in the hastily raised units, especially from the Dominions.  As well as issued, lanyards were occasionally made by the men themselves and could either be woven from odd lengths of cordage or modified to be thicker using the issue pattern and you will see many variations in both square and round form.  He appears to have an unusual badge between chevrons and star that I can't make out.

[GRUMPY]

He is not at all young in close-up. He is badged as a RQMS pre-mid 1915, but with an extra badge between chevrons and 8 point star. It would be ineresting to see a quality shot of this. It might just be a Geneva Cross if medical.

The other anomaly is he is badged only on one side, certainly not the official practice in the British service.
We have had a thread on one-sided rank badges here before ...... some suggestions of "acting" or "temporary", which are unconvincing.

[Moonraker]

Sorry, I've played around with a close-up of the badge but can't get it any better. The original image was very large. Perhaps the Pte F Murphy I found in the unit's roll had been given a temporary promotion with the departure of Owens, hence the chevrons on one arm? Quite a jump, I know, but the Contingent was recruited mainly from Militia and civilians (albeit many with previous military service)and its NCOs sometimes didn't need that much experience of the army. And a specialist qualification (perhaps medical)as suggested by the blurred badge would have helped.

It's a pity that I can't find his attestation papers and that the unit's war diary isn't available for November and December 1914.


Moonraker

[FROGSMILE]

Moonraker, on 04 November 2011 - 11:14 AM, said:

Sorry, I've played around with a close-up of the badge but can't get it any better. The original image was very large. Perhaps the Pte F Murphy I found in the unit's roll had been given a temporary promotion with the departure of Owens, hence the chevrons on one arm? Quite a jump, I know, but the Contingent was recruited mainly from Militia and civilians (albeit many with previous military service)and its NCOs sometimes didn't need that much experience of the army. And a specialist qualification (perhaps medical)as suggested by the blurred badge would have helped.

It's a pity that I can't find his attestation papers and that the unit's war diary isn't available for November and December 1914.


Moonraker

Moonraker you say that the original image was very large.  If you have access to it can you look at the badge (perhaps through a magnifying glass if you have one) and then describe it here?

[Moonraker]

Sorry, no, all I've got is a scan. In the past I've played around with magnifying glasses and enlarging images on a PC and found not much difference between the results. This is the best I can do by way of a close-up, which is barely an improvement on my first go:


 blow-up.jpg   10.67K   5 downloads

Moonraker

[FROGSMILE]

Moonraker, on 04 November 2011 - 03:58 PM, said:

Sorry, no, all I've got is a scan. In the past I've played around with magnifying glasses and enlarging images on a PC and found not much difference between the results. This is the best I can do by way of a close-up, which is barely an improvement on my first go:


blow-up.jpg

Moonraker

Thanks for trying, but there's not a hope of identifying the badge with that resolution.  It is very large and extremely unusual in appearance.  I don't think it is the Geneva Cross as the scale with the other badges is not right and I think the cross would be visible even at that distance.  Not a clue as to what it is though.

[GRUMPY]

Members of [at least] St John Ambulance were allowed to wear the St J badge in British uniform: I have several such photos.

There is a Geneva Cross on a greatcoat behind our man, and that gives a useful size/ design comparison. One in the flesh at:
http://www.germanmil...s/07CanWW1.html

Just possibly there was a Canadian organisation authorised to have its own badge worn ...... perhaps Red Cross of Canada [if there was such a thing] with a small cross on white ground and wording in the NSEW quadrants.

Whatever, he is certainly a QMS and the rest is speculation.

[Moonraker]

The owner of the original has provided me with this close-up:

 CAMC_Murphy.jpg   44.86K   8 downloads

Moonraker

[shippingsteel]

Moonraker, on 04 November 2011 - 09:02 AM, said:

The names are given in white on the left and right hand sides of the photograph and some are quite hard to make out. I'd read no 19 as being "Pte F Murphy" ....

Would not the name of the man be listed under No.6 instead of No.19.? It appears from the photo the numbers are arranged next to the mens boots.
The men at the back have the larger numbers with those at the front having the smaller numbers. Thats just how it looks to me - hope that helps a little.!

Cheers, S>S

[FROGSMILE]

Moonraker, on 05 November 2011 - 09:28 PM, said:

The owner of the original has provided me with this close-up:

CAMC_Murphy.jpg

Moonraker

I am wondering if he is a member of the Canadian part of the Legion of Frontiersmen and wearing their badge (enclosed) between his chevrons and star.  The Quadrant marks seem to fit and the Canadians were a strong part of the L of F and created a complete battalion, rather like the 25th Battalion RF in the British Army.

On the outbreak of war a certain Dr Wakefield wrote to the Canadian Prime Minister, Sir Edward Morris, offering the Newfoundland Frontiersmen for active service. However this offer was declined by the Government but they were free to enlist in the Canadian Army then being formed. Thus 150 members of the Newfoundland Command of the Legion of Frontiersmen became part of the Newfoundland Regiment.

Initially accommodated in tents with no flooring at a very muddy Pond Farm Camp in October, from 9 November until 7 December 1914 the Newfoundland Regiment was at Bustard Camp and contributed considerably with a large number of men skilled in woodwork (some of whom were qualified carpenters) in constructing wooden huts at the nearby Larkhill Camp.  While they were there a photograph was taken of the Warrant Officers and Sergeants that December and I think that with the men in wellington boots this is the photo posted by the OP.  Shortly after the photo was taken the regiment moved to Fort George (Depot of the Seaforth Highlanders).  

It seems quite feasible that some of these Legion of Frontiersmen were either temporarily attached to or were a part of the Field Ambulance concerned.

Attached Files

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[GRUMPY]

Could well be!

Occam's razor solution!

[Moonraker]

ShippingSteel and Frogsmile share the coconut, and I've had a double dose of missing the obvious, though perhaps I may be forgiven for my narrow perspective of assuming that numbers between the men's legs referred to their owners! (Why didn't the photographer put the relevant numbers above the heads of the men in the back rank?)

By coincidence, only three days ago was I polishing up my references to the Legion of Frontiersmen (and Dr Wakefield) in a text soon to be published. Sir Edward Morris was the Newfoundland prime minister, not Canada's. Newfoundland was then a separate dominion to Canada and its members were VERY jealous of that. They were not impressed when the ship bearing the first 537 members of their contingent joined the convoy bearing the First Canadian Contingent to England, to be greeted by a band playing the Canadian national anthem.

Some Newfoundland legionnaires did enlist in the Canadian army, which also had a a number of Legion men from Canada in their ranks. The men in my photo belong to their army's No 1 Field Ambulance and not to the Newfoundland Regiment. (Cue for cap-badge experts to focus on the two heads in my first image!)

Some of the annotations giving the men's names are difficult to read, but with the benefit of comments made above I can see that No 6 is indeed John B Owens, whose attestation papers show that he came from Wolverhampton and had four years' service with the 3rd South Staffordshire Regiment. They don't give his address at the time of enlistment.

Thanks to everyone for helping me out, though there remains one question: how common was it it for soldiers to wear the Legion's badge and was this "unofficial" and merely tolerated, or was it officially permitted?


Moonraker

[FROGSMILE]

Moonraker, on 06 November 2011 - 04:08 PM, said:

ShippingSteel and Frogsmile share the coconut, and I've had a double dose of missing the obvious, though perhaps I may be forgiven for my narrow perspective of assuming that numbers between the men's legs referred to their owners! (Why didn't the photographer put the relevant numbers above the heads of the men in the back rank?)

By coincidence, only three days ago was I polishing up my references to the Legion of Frontiersmen (and Dr Wakefield) in a text soon to be published. Sir Edward Morris was the Newfoundland prime minister, not Canada's. Newfoundland was then a separate dominion to Canada and its members were VERY jealous of that. They were not impressed when the ship bearing the first 537 members of their contingent joined the convoy bearing the First Canadian Contingent to England, to be greeted by a band playing the Canadian national anthem.

Some Newfoundland legionnaires did enlist in the Canadian army, which also had a a number of Legion men from Canada in their ranks. The men in my photo belong to their army's No 1 Field Ambulance and not to the Newfoundland Regiment. (Cue for cap-badge experts to focus on the two heads in my first image!)

Some of the annotations giving the men's names are difficult to read, but with the benefit of comments made above I can see that No 6 is indeed John B Owens, whose attestation papers show that he came from Wolverhampton and had four years' service with the 3rd South Staffordshire Regiment. They don't give his address at the time of enlistment.

Thanks to everyone for helping me out, though there remains one question: how common was it it for soldiers to wear the Legion's badge and was this "unofficial" and merely tolerated, or was it officially permitted?


Moonraker

I managed to find these War Diaries / Records for the 1st Field Ambulance, which you might find of interest if you have not already seen them:

1.    http://data4.collect..._e.html&r=1&f=G

2.  http://digital.libra...c/camc.html#III

Attached Files

•  PIC_1360.jpg   77.42K   1 downloads

[Rees]

William was my grandfather's brother.  In WW1 he was posted to the No 2 Field Ambulance unit of the Canadian Army Medical Corp.  He was promoted to the rank of Sergeant whilst with No 2 Field Ambulance at Westenhanger October 1914.  He was promoted to the rank of Staff Sergeant whilst with No 2 at Westenhanger January 1915.  

He was “struck off strength” of the No 2 Field Ambulance and transferred to Capt.Howlett , Jan 1915 at Larkhill.   Same for his son William.   (War Diary No 2 Field Ambulance).  Would you know if his son, William a private, originally in the 16 battalion is in the original picture, as he was transferred to Capt Howlett at Larkhill on the same date.


William served in the British Army (Royal West Kent Regiment) for seventeen years prior to enlisting in Canada with the Canadian Army Service Corp.
In 1922, at the reorganization of the Canadian Artillery, he was appointed regimental sergeant-major for the 8^th field brigade.  He retired from the Army in 1936.

Wow! does he ever look young in this photo,  

At present I am trying to find his brother's (Andrew Charles, Surrey Regiment) grave that is supposedly in Ypres as he was killed at Hill 60.  

[FROGSMILE]

Rees, on 07 January 2012 - 04:41 AM, said:

William was my grandfather's brother.  In WW1 he was posted to the No 2 Field Ambulance unit of the Canadian Army Medical Corp.  He was promoted to the rank of Sergeant whilst with No 2 Field Ambulance at Westenhanger October 1914.  He was promoted to the rank of Staff Sergeant whilst with No 2 at Westenhanger January 1915.  

He was "struck off strength" of the No 2 Field Ambulance and transferred to Capt.Howlett , Jan 1915 at Larkhill.   Same for his son William.   (War Diary No 2 Field Ambulance).  Would you know if his son, William a private, originally in the 16 battalion is in the original picture, as he was transferred to Capt Howlett at Larkhill on the same date.


William served in the British Army (Royal West Kent Regiment) for seventeen years prior to enlisting in Canada with the Canadian Army Service Corp.
In 1922, at the reorganization of the Canadian Artillery, he was appointed regimental sergeant-major for the 8^th field brigade.  He retired from the Army in 1936.

Wow! does he ever look young in this photo,  

At present I am trying to find his brother's (Andrew Charles, Surrey Regiment) grave that is supposedly in Ypres as he was killed at Hill 60.  

What a fascinating coincidence Rees.  Thank you for posting and explaining more detail regarding the photograph.  It is ofttimes amazing what we can learn from a single image on this Forum.

I did think that his moustache was very reminiscent of 'Regular Army'.

[Rees]

Your welcome Brigadier-General,   I too was amazed at the coincidence of my research crossing paths with Moonraker's querry.

Regarding the Patches on the sleeve.

His brother John was posted to the No 2 Stationary Hospital and wore the same cross above his two chevrons which were on his shoulder with the point of the chevron pointing down.
I believe this patch to be the Canadian Medical Corps Geneva Cross Arm Patch which is found at the point of the four chevrons in the photo.

Now the patch above this Medic Cross is too blurry to make out.  But in the photo I have of an older William with the same moustache, he wears a white arm band which holds the medical cross on the left arm.  His right sleeve has the four chevrons with points upward, towards a "Queens Crown".    

However the inconsistencies of:  1.  William transferred to Larkhill (Captain Howlett) 1 Jan 1915 from the No 2 Field Ambulance,  and the date on this photo was suggested as 1914.     2.  The name of Murphy with William's service number.      3. A more youthful William than what I was expecting, leaves me wondering if it is really him.

If he had just transferred there, could they have matched up a new roll call with an older picture?  How do you mix up a name with a different service number?  Hmm!  Also wondering if his son a private, also named William could have added to the confusion if he was in the same photograph.

[Rees]

William WW 1 photo

Attached Files

•  William WW1 Cropped 2.jpg   79.09K   2 downloads

[Moonraker]

Hullo Rees, welcome to the fourm and thanks for your update on the thread I started.

I've looked again at the photograph and can see no "Rees" among the names. It's definitely dated 1914.

Your reference to William and the 2nd Field Ambulance being at Westenhanger in October 1914 intrigues. No 2's war diary shows that after it landed in England in mid-October it went to West Down South Camp on Salisbury Plain.

However Westenhanger is very close to Beachborough Park, near Folkestone. The Park's owners placed their house and its staff at the disposal of the Canadian War Contingent Association in mid-October. It initially had 50 to 60 beds and a staff of Canadian nurses who had been in England at the outbreak of war, under the supervision of Miss Amy MacMahon of Toronto. Sir William Osler, the Regius Professor of Medicine at Oxford University, was appointed its physician. The first patients were wounded Belgian soldiers. It became the Queen's Canadian Military Hospital.

It may be that on arrival in England William was detached to Beachborough Park.

I don't know the locality but a glance at a modern map still makes one wonder a little about the reference to Westenhanger, as Sandling is nearer to the Park.


Moonraker

[FROGSMILE]

Rees, on 07 January 2012 - 03:54 PM, said:

Your welcome Brigadier-General,   I too was amazed at the coincidence of my research crossing paths with Moonraker's querry.

Regarding the Patches on the sleeve.

His brother John was posted to the No 2 Stationary Hospital and wore the same cross above his two chevrons which were on his shoulder with the point of the chevron pointing down.
I believe this patch to be the Canadian Medical Corps Geneva Cross Arm Patch which is found at the point of the four chevrons in the photo.

Now the patch above this Medic Cross is too blurry to make out.  But in the photo I have of an older William with the same moustache, he wears a white arm band which holds the medical cross on the left arm.  His right sleeve has the four chevrons with points upward, towards a "Queens Crown".    

However the inconsistencies of:  1.  William transferred to Larkhill (Captain Howlett) 1 Jan 1915 from the No 2 Field Ambulance,  and the date on this photo was suggested as 1914. 2.  The name of Murphy with William's service number.      3. A more youthful William than what I was expecting, leaves me wondering if it is really him.

If he had just transferred there, could they have matched up a new roll call with an older picture?  How do you mix up a name with a different service number?  Hmm!  Also wondering if his son a private, also named William could have added to the confusion if he was in the same photograph.

Hello Rees, we did consider the possibility that the badge betwixt star and chevrons was a RAMC Geneva Red Cross, but felt that the scale was wrong and if you look closely you will see that the tips of the cross extend almost to the edge of the badge in a way that red crosses did not but the Frontiersman's badge did.

As Grumpy said, you can see the red cross badge behind and to the right of our man in the original photograph and see just how different it looks, both in scale and design.

Attached Files

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[Moonraker]

Perhaps I'm still as confused   as I was when I started this thread, but just to confirm that we've determined that the photograph I posted shows John B Owens and it's of No 1 Field Ambulance.

I've checked the List of Officers and Men Serving in the First Canadian Contingent compiled probably in early November 1914 and I can see no Rees with No 2 Field Ambulance. There is a John Andrew Rees 34319 with No 2 Stationary Hospital, and L A Rees 28667 is listed in A coy, 16th Battalion.

There are all sorts of anomalies in the roll and on at least a couple of occasions Divisional Orders listed men and asked if it was known if they were with the Contingent!

The Canadians endured terrible weather on Salisbury Plain and on several occasions tents were blown down and paperwork scattered over the countryside. I have several postcards that were forwarded from Canada in the belief that the addressees were with the Contingent and which never reached the intended recipients, and in some cases I can't trace the names. (A batch of these were auctioned locally a few years ago and last year were offered on eBay.)


Moonraker