13 replies to this topic

[manicminer]

I hope someone can help. I have the image of my Grandfathers Medal Rolls Index Card but need help deciphering some of the annotations. Most notably CC/10/B, CC/111/B1 and NW/2/3441  I know he was in the Lovats Scouts (Gallipoli) and then attached to the KOSB as a musketry instructor.

I'd be grateful for any explanation of the details on this card.

Many thanks in anticipation
Phil

Attached Files

•  GLG Medal rolls index card3.jpg   22.9K   6 downloads

[HarryBettsMCDCM]

The references are the MEDAL  ROLL Page references that the MiC was used for by the AMO to locate the relevant Roll and Page these are now to be found at the NA.
HB R&F Roll suggests that he is included on the "Rank & File" Roll as well as the OFF[icers] Roll pages.

NW/2/3441 is if you look above it part of another roll number reference,possibly an IGS or GSM

E?? rtd, on the reverse of card  suggests that something was returned??

[manicminer]

Many thanks for that. Another quick question, another relative has the symbol shown on his card in three places. Any idea as to the meaning please?

HarryBettsMCDCM, on 10 November 2011 - 09:20 PM, said:

The references are the MEDAL  ROLL Page references that the MiC was used for by the AMO to locate the relevant Roll and Page these are now to be found at the NA.
HB R&F Roll suggests that he is included on the "Rank & File" Roll as well as the OFF[icers] Roll pages.

NW/2/3441 is if you look above it part of another roll number reference,possibly an IGS or GSM

E?? rtd, on the reverse of card  suggests that something was returned??

Attached Files

•  x.jpg   2.03K   2 downloads

[Bombadier]

manicminer, on 10 November 2011 - 09:37 PM, said:

Many thanks for that. Another quick question, another relative has the symbol shown on his card in three places. Any idea as to the meaning please?

That symbol denotes the unit, rank etc which would be on his medals.

Nigel

[aliecoco]

Hi there, I'm going to have to disagree on a point here; there is no current reference to the NW/2/3441, that I have ever been able to look up. I venture to think it must of been of value at some point, but not now. Most MIC's have this sort of numbering below them, but as I say its nothing that researchers can look up. (Happy to be corrected!) There is however, quite a lot on this MIC that is exciting to research. I would check up every other reference for the medal rolls, and you have three here, what they will bring up, I don't know. The NA has the Army Lists, and your man is an officer, so every chance he could have some records at the NA?? Can you get to London??

Alie.

[kenf48]

Gordon Lewellyn Griffiths was a private in the Lovat Scouts, a Territorial Yeomanry unit.  He was promoted to A/Sgt and renumbered in 1917 125155 (when the Territorial units were all renumbered).

He was commissioned into the Lovat Scouts on 26th September 1917 and later attached to the KOSB as a Lieutenant.
2B indicates Gallipolli and he probably landed on 26 September 1915.

As an officer he would have to apply for his medals and they were sent to the address on the back of the card.

Looking at the dates I wonder if the medals were returned for correction on 20/2/23 and replaced on 14/4/23.  The reference is i.v.x/1163( these are described on Ancestry as 'obscure'!)  It's unlikely, as often happened with enlisted men they were returned because they went to the wrong address.

For further initial research see the parent site the Long Long Trail
http://www.1914-1918...dad/grandad.htm

The symbol you refer to is simply a manuscript asterix so on your card the disputed "'x' NW/2/3441" refers to an administrative note 'x' against the officers roll and the rank of 'x' 2/Lt.  (Perhaps the correction).


Ken

[manicminer]

Thanks Nigel and Allie

I have some further detail from some research carried out many years ago.   Gordon Llewellyn Griffiths was born in May 1888 in Neath, Glamorgan. His father David was a grocer in Windsor Terrace, Neath. Details of Gordon's early life are scarce but it is known that, at the age of 18, he had a commission (2nd Lieutenant) bought for him in the 6th Welch Regiment, 3rd Glamorgan Rifle Corps. This commission was purchased by a relative (Aunt?) this known as his father was, by this time, deceased.  This fact is interesting as the 3rd Glam was, I believe, a volunteer regt and I always thought that a commission could not be bought under these circumstances?

During the course of this commission Gordon "passed School of instruction and obtained a satisfactory report for the rank of Lieutenant". What happened next is unclear and confusing. By his own hand, he states that he resigned his commission (2nd Lt) owing to ill health, never having become a Lieutenant. He was advised by his doctor to go abroad. Records show that he resigned with 'neurasthenia'. This technical term could be construed as stress and needs to be considered in context that Gordon was only 20 however, Gordon's daughter clearly remembers him speaking of this after WWI and stating that he left the regiment as he could no longer afford the mess bills. This latter story seems more logical given his humble upbringing and that his later war service proved him to be a strong character with no nervous disability. We can only speculate that he found a sympathetic doctor who gave him the ability to resign without having to admit financial embarrassment?

At the time of the war breaking out he was in Fusan (now Pusan, South Korea). What he was doing there is not known nor is it known where he went between 1908 and 1914.

When war was declared Gordon hastily returned to the UK, landing at Glasgow on 22nd February 1915 and, on the same day, he enlisted as a Private with the 1st Lovat Scouts Yeomanry. 5 months later he was posted with the Scouts to the Balkans theatre of war (Gallipoli). During that short action he received serious gun and shrapnel wounds to the legs and back requiring him to be hospitalised in Alexandria before returning to the UK. During the course of 1916 he became regular soldier and gained the position of Sergeant and, as a musketry instructor, was appointed as Brigade Instructor to the 3rd line at Galashiels. He did not join the regiment in Egypt and Macedonia but did travel to Belgium in the closing months of the war. At the end of the war he was retired as a result of his injuries.  

It appears that his skills were in demand during the war and despite his injuries he was an instructor for many months, the Lovat Scouts being short of officers for such duties. He was recommended to become a 2nd Lieutenant by his CO but War Office rules meant that this was not possible unless he had previously served as an officer 'during the current theatre of war'. His previous service with the Welch regiment did not count. As a result of this decision he was 'fast tracked' through the No.4 Officer Cadet Battalion at Oxford and gained his commission in September 1917. As a 2nd Lieutenant he was seconded to the King's Own Scottish borderers as a training officer. He finished the war as a full Lieutenant and retired with a disability pension.

There is also a story that he was recommended for a VC as a result of his actions in Gallipoli. No award was made but my (late) mother specifically recalls seeing a letter from his CO reffering to this.  Sadly this letter has been lost  so cannot be verified.

I will continue to research and hopefully find some was diaries which relate to his time in Gallipoli.  Phil.

aliecoco, on 10 November 2011 - 10:04 PM, said:

Hi there, I'm going to have to disagree on a point here; there is no current reference to the NW/2/3441, that I have ever been able to look up. I venture to think it must of been of value at some point, but not now. Most MIC's have this sort of numbering below them, but as I say its nothing that researchers can look up. (Happy to be corrected!) There is however, quite a lot on this MIC that is exciting to research. I would check up every other reference for the medal rolls, and you have three here, what they will bring up, I don't know. The NA has the Army Lists, and your man is an officer, so every chance he could have some records at the NA?? Can you get to London??

Alie.

[manicminer]

Dear all

My quest for more information has resulted in me getting copies of the war diaries for the 1/1 and 1/2 Lovat's Scouts, for the period they were in Gallipoli, from October to December 1915.

I have found a reference to Pte G L Griffiths on a page dated 24 October 15 which starts "List of recommendations sent to B.H.Q".  
Specific mention of:

2 Lt Paterson, A Sqdn,  "excellent nights reconnaisance....."
2200 Sgt D Sutherland, D Sqdn, "for excellent scouting by night and disposing of sniper by day...."
2689 Pte A MacFarland, A Sqdn, "ditto"
2214 L??? W Swan, A Sqdn, ".....work with stalking glass and rifle to keep down sniper in which he was succesful"
2697 Pte G L Griffiths, C Sqdn,  When badly wounded by shell in fire trench pulled another wounded man to a place of safety
2100 Pte A MacMillan "killed a turk today"

Later documents obtained by a researcher, from the NA, shows that Griffiths was badly wounded in the back and legs and shipped back to England via Alexandria.

My next question therefore has to be - where will I find the copy of the above "recommendations" as received by BHQ (assuming this was the brigade headquarters of the Highland Mounted Brigade) and, if I do, will they include reasons why such recommendations did not result in a medals or MID etc?

Thanks as ever.  Phil

manicminer, on 10 November 2011 - 10:42 PM, said:

Thanks Nigel and Allie
I have some further detail from some research carried out many years ago.   Gordon Llewellyn Griffiths was born in May 1888 in Neath, Glamorgan. His father David was a grocer in Windsor Terrace, Neath. Details of Gordon's early life are scarce but it is known that, at the age of 18, he had a commission (2nd Lieutenant) bought for him in the 6th Welch Regiment, 3rd Glamorgan Rifle Corps. This commission was purchased by a relative (Aunt?) this known as his father was, by this time, deceased.  This fact is interesting as the 3rd Glam was, I believe, a volunteer regt and I always thought that a commission could not be bought under these circumstances?

During the course of this commission Gordon "passed School of instruction and obtained a satisfactory report for the rank of Lieutenant". What happened next is unclear and confusing. By his own hand, he states that he resigned his commission (2nd Lt) owing to ill health, never having become a Lieutenant. He was advised by his doctor to go abroad. Records show that he resigned with 'neurasthenia'. This technical term could be construed as stress and needs to be considered in context that Gordon was only 20 however, Gordon's daughter clearly remembers him speaking of this after WWI and stating that he left the regiment as he could no longer afford the mess bills. This latter story seems more logical given his humble upbringing and that his later war service proved him to be a strong character with no nervous disability. We can only speculate that he found a sympathetic doctor who gave him the ability to resign without having to admit financial embarrassment?

At the time of the war breaking out he was in Fusan (now Pusan, South Korea). What he was doing there is not known nor is it known where he went between 1908 and 1914.

When war was declared Gordon hastily returned to the UK, landing at Glasgow on 22nd February 1915 and, on the same day, he enlisted as a Private with the 1st Lovat Scouts Yeomanry. 5 months later he was posted with the Scouts to the Balkans theatre of war (Gallipoli). During that short action he received serious gun and shrapnel wounds to the legs and back requiring him to be hospitalised in Alexandria before returning to the UK. During the course of 1916 he became regular soldier and gained the position of Sergeant and, as a musketry instructor, was appointed as Brigade Instructor to the 3rd line at Galashiels. He did not join the regiment in Egypt and Macedonia but did travel to Belgium in the closing months of the war. At the end of the war he was retired as a result of his injuries.  

It appears that his skills were in demand during the war and despite his injuries he was an instructor for many months, the Lovat Scouts being short of officers for such duties. He was recommended to become a 2nd Lieutenant by his CO but War Office rules meant that this was not possible unless he had previously served as an officer 'during the current theatre of war'. His previous service with the Welch regiment did not count. As a result of this decision he was 'fast tracked' through the No.4 Officer Cadet Battalion at Oxford and gained his commission in September 1917. As a 2nd Lieutenant he was seconded to the King's Own Scottish borderers as a training officer. He finished the war as a full Lieutenant and retired with a disability pension.

There is also a story that he was recommended for a VC as a result of his actions in Gallipoli. No award was made but my (late) mother specifically recalls seeing a letter from his CO reffering to this.  Sadly this letter has been lost  so cannot be verified.

I will continue to research and hopefully find some was diaries which relate to his time in Gallipoli.  Phil.

[aliecoco]

Hi Phil,

Did your researcher look up his service record at the NA, or was it just the war diaries?

Alie.

[Martin G]

manicminer, on 10 November 2011 - 08:55 PM, said:

I hope someone can help. I have the image of my Grandfathers Medal Rolls Index Card but need help deciphering some of the annotations. Most notably CC/10/B, CC/111/B1 and NW/2/3441  I know he was in the Lovats Scouts (Gallipoli) and then attached to the KOSB as a musketry instructor.

I'd be grateful for any explanation of the details on this card.

Many thanks in anticipation
Phil

Phil - the references CC/10/B and CC/111/B1 are the medal roll references  - most likely for the 1914-15 Star and the British War Medal - the 'CC' references to the Cavalry Deport at Canterbury (Kent)  - CC= Cavalry Canterbury. This is seen on many Yeomanry and Cavalry MICs - the other being CY referring to Cavalry, York - the other main depot dealing with the Cavalry. All the Cavalry and Yeomanry records were compiled at these deports from the men's records and the definitive medal rolls for each regiment dictated which medals each man was entitled to. The MICs were compiled from these medal rolls (not the other-way around). The original rolls for each regiment are now held at the National Archives in Kew and are worth inspecting as many mistakes were made during the manual transcriptions.

It sounds as if you have the War Dairies for the Lovat's Scouts. I have researched the Yeomanry at Gallipoli for some time and there is not much available outside of this material. From your research so far, if he was in the list of recommendations sent to BHQ (Brigade HQ) it is possible that the recommendation made its way to the Corps Commander and he may have been 'Mentioned in Despatches' . If this is the case he it is possible that he was mentioned in the despatches of General Sir Charles Munro KCB dated 6th March 1916 which were gazetted on 13th Jul 1916  in the London Gazette. There would have been a separate certificate dated 1st March 1919 (ironically signed by Churchill, architect of the Gallipoli fiasco and then Sec of State for War) and also a separate card held at the National Archives -  a search on Ancestry should highlight this.


If his recommendation did not turn into an MiD this was not unusual. For a multitude of reasons, hundreds (thousands?) of recommendations did not make it through. At Gallipoli there was certainly a loose 'quota' system that ensured units were fairly equally rewarded and if Gen Nicol is to be believed (Commanding 30th Inf Bde, 10th Irish Div) politics came into the equation as he bitterly complained to the Official Historian that all (sic) his recommendations were deliberately quashed by Gen De Lisle  after Gen Mahon's departure. Similarly the ANZACs and the RN (including the RNAS and the RN Bdes) were short changed when it came to awards and recognition if some historians are to be believed. In short, a recommendation at Battalion level did not guarantee official recognition.

Ironically, in some case the fact that an individual served throughout the Gallipoli ordeal and survived might have been enough for some recognition. The men who originally landed at Gallipoli, served throughout and were eventually evacuated were a rare breed. Massive battle casualties and even higher non-battle casualties often reduced the numbers in a battalion to a mere fraction of the original numbers. The numbers are 'masked' by waves of reinforcements. To survive was in some cases enough to be eligible for mention - a survivor would have had an iron constitution to avoid the dysentery pandemic and probably an even stronger mind to withstand the mental rigours. The man in the avatar was one of 33 men out of an original 326 to walk out with the Derbyshire Yeomanry and he was MiD. No record of why, but he was extremely lucky - shot through the sleeve at Chocolate Hill. The DY's experience was fairly typical - 90% casualties (battle and non-battle casulaties) in the original landing troops in the Yeomary 2nd Mtd Div..

Regards

MG

P.S. If he was commissioned and did not serve after 1922, there is a good chance that his service records are at Kew. MG

[Chris_Baker]

There is a service record file at the National Archives to a Territorial officer named G L Griffiths: series and reference number WO374/29437.

[corisande]

Manicminer,

I am researching him and have emailed you off your web site, if you would like to contact me,

[manicminer]

Corisande - thanks for the contact and interesting emails. I am confident that Gordon's history between 1915 and 1919 is documented correctly but, following your reports, it is clear that I need to do more research for the periods 1908 - 1915 and 1919 - 1923.  The former period is a mystery but your thoughts that he was 'removed' rather than resigned his commission with the Royal Welch should be possible to check once I can get to the Courts Martial records at the PRO.

The later period where you indicate he served with ADRIC is news to me and an interesting thread to follow up on. As a demobbed great war officer however I can see that he would have been an ideal choice for the ADRIC.

As ever, my research continues but thank you for your input.

Phil - Manicminer

[corisande]

As Phil says we have been in contact. The nub of the pre-war information is

1910 Oct 26. 6th (Glamorgan) Battalion, The Welsh Regiment; Second Lieutenant Gordon L. Griffiths is removed from the Territorial Force This is gazette entry

Then his war service

1915 Feb 22. Landed in Glasgow and on the same day, he enlisted as a Private with the 1st Lovat Scouts Yeomanry, a Territorial Army Unit. - I cannot get his shipping record, but the family info is that he returned from Korea to enlist

1917 Sep 26 Commissioned 2nd Lt. Cadet Gordon Llewellyn Griffiths

What I am unclear  the info Phil has been given which I quote from his post above

War Office rules meant that this was not possible unless he had previously served as an officer 'during the current theatre of war'. His previous service with the Welch regiment did not count. As a result of this decision he was 'fast tracked' through the No.4 Officer Cadet Battalion at Oxford and gained his commission in September 1917.

My feeling is that he came back in as a Private because he had been "removed", if he had resigned he would have come in as a 2nd Lt. And that he was not " fast tracked" taking about 2.5 years to get another commission.

So the question is what (if anything) caused his "removal" in 1910. From the family story it is probably to do with money and I would suspect cheques, but I have no idea how to advice Phil as to where to look for this info.