180 replies to this topic

[TRAJAN]

Having followed this thread on the odd occasion I am beginning to see that those of those in the bayonet fraternity are clearly not as obsessed with our subject as our 'loved ones' seem to think we are: there are others who take their interest even further than we can imagine... Carry on the good work   -  I (and others) are picking up lots of information here!

Best regards to all on this thread,

Trajan

[GRANVILLE]

TRAJAN, on 22 November 2011 - 04:54 PM, said:

Having followed this thread on the odd occasion I am beginning to see that those of those in the bayonet fraternity are clearly not as obsessed with our subject as our 'loved ones' seem to think we are: there are others who take their interest even further than we can imagine... Carry on the good work   -  I (and others) are picking up lots of information here!

Best regards to all on this thread,

Trajan

Bang on! Who could have imagined Bifurcated Rivets and helmet Bales could possibly be so fascinating and yet.....
More to follow undoubtedly.

Dave

[MartinBennitt]

GRANVILLE, on 22 November 2011 - 05:26 PM, said:

Bang on! Who could have imagined Bifurcated Rivets and helmet Bales could possibly be so fascinating and yet.....
More to follow undoubtedly.

Dave

I hope so. What fascinates me is that for a mere £15 Sean seems to have come by a real piece of history. And we haven't even started discussing the SMLE he picked up at the same time. I will continue to follow this thread with interest.

cheers Martin B

[GRANVILLE]

spconnolly007, on 22 November 2011 - 03:11 PM, said:

Thanks Andrew, quick post as im off to make some Brodie split pins, I mean work . LS, Leadbetter & Scott, Sheffield. Looks like they wrapped up in 1919, but like there neighbour Miris, were producing cutlery before doing their bit for the war effort. A line of inquiry me thinks. MLS though? Sean http://www.google.co...ZBN7asVWIFaggnQ

Sean,

Took me a while to bottom this as the link you've posted won't work for me, however Leadbetter should read Leadbeater & Scott. This is a very early firm in the Sheffield metal working scene as far as I can determine and a name like Lead-beater only emphasizes the point. I can only find one piece of commentary on the firm so far, which I reproduce below. A possible spanner concerns the way the writer can only get the firm to 1911. The L&S trademark was a capital letter 'L' with a capital letter 'S' entwined with it. This is what I found:

Though listed, primarily, as steel manufacturers, ads for Leadbeater
& Scott indicate that they also manufacturerd files, saws, hammers,
engineering tools, etc. At this point in time, I have these working
dates:

LEADBEATER & SCOTT              Sheffield            1876 - 1911
      St. Mary's Works, Penistone Road      [1876 - 1901]
      National Steel Works, Penistone Road  [1905 - 1911]

Their 1876 ad states that they were established in 1846, but I've
found no listings for Leadbeater & Scott as late as 1862. So, the
1846 date must refer to a preceding firm of a different name.
Leadbeater & Scott appear to have been established some time
between 1862 and 1876. Also, as usual, the 1911 date simply
refers to the latest directory available to me.

Further to the above, thanks to the Sheffield Forum I can confirm L&S were in business throughout both world war's as they appear in a trade directory for 1968. It's suggested they closed shortly thereafter.

That entry read:

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•  LEADBEATER.jpg   66.09K   0 downloads

[THE SHINY SEVENTH]

Thanks for replies guy's, sorry Dave, link does not work for me either!! I was in a rush to get to work but managed to find a PDF file on-line that covered all the manufacturing stamp marks for steel companies of the era. Instead of saving to 'my favorites' I copied and pasted it hoping that by the time I got back from work you would of delved into it and saved me a lot of reading . I will have to go and find it again. Of the listings I read LS was actually attributed to Leadbetter & son, Sheffield(LS would have been inside a triangle,originally) but when I looked further, they are then listed as Leadbetter & Scott. Will find it asap and re-post. Bales fitted tonight and a few patches of matt black paint added in areas, which then had dirt and dust from workshop floor rubbed into them, giving them that 100yr old look. Photo doesn't really do them justice, but they do look like they grew up with the shell. Regards Seanp.s my apologies, its Leadbeater, still cant find the document, although I found a similar document that lists the manufacturer as LS entwined inside a triangle, but further on lists them as LS (inside triangle-Leadbeater). As Miris seem to have used 2 different stamps, the oblong MYRYS and MS on Brodies, I know its a lot to presume but could Leadbeater have not done the same? Im petty sure if my company had a logo associated with fine cutlery, i would not want it used on military headwear.

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[Wardog]

Several years ago I obtained an old fashond laundry box from the rubbish left at end of show at Beltring. In its construction it used many split rivets exactly the same as those used for MK1 liner, chinstrap an bails and so have had them handy for use since. Good effort on the bails, I have tried to replace the copper wire conecting the upper strap to the chinstrap before but have not manage to make perfect little rectangles. Regards, Paul.

[THE SHINY SEVENTH]

Thanks Paul, if I'd known that I would have got you to post me a couple!! I did have a few goes at the rectangular loops before i got a good matching pair, but got there in the end. The split rivets were a bit thick once I'd bent them over but managed to thin them out a bit to make them look more like the samples that have been posted, regards Sean

[GRANVILLE]

spconnolly007, on 23 November 2011 - 01:17 AM, said:

Thanks Paul, if I'd known that I would have got you to post me a couple!! I did have a few goes at the rectangular loops before i got a good matching pair, but got there in the end. The split rivets were a bit thick once I'd bent them over but managed to thin them out a bit to make them look more like the samples that have been posted, regards Sean

I seem to remember when I worked on mine, I had a few of these rivets left over from doing the job they are sold for here on eBay - Landrover bonnet tape: http://www.ebay.co.u...6#ht_500wt_1101
As I recall, I felt they were still a tad too long for the job, so I trimmed a smidgen off them first. Sean, I can I check if you got an email I sent you the other day? I'm not sure is some emails make it through or not.
Dave

[THE SHINY SEVENTH]

Hi Dave, just spent 20 mins compiling a private message to you with link, but it looks like your in-box is full, please dont tell me you collect PM's also . Hopefully this works http://www.docstoc.c...E-METAL-TABLEWA  the firm is listed as you would expect, in alphabetical order, but if you scroll down they are listed again as LS (in triangle etc) why would the author make a reference to them as LS if it was not a known brand stamp? Regards Sean

[GRANVILLE]

Well done Sean, that's a really cracking document you've unearthed albeit of limited information to the WW1 enthusiast.
I've been through all of the recognized brodie makers and steel suppliers; they are all listed, but as far as I can tell the only* registered company mark that appears to pop up on brodie rims is that belonging to Miris (the lozenge shaped trademark with MIRIS within). All other companies seem to me to have simply adopted a really quick and simple way of identifying their product such as HS for Hadfield's Sheffield, FS for Frith Sheffield etc. Bearing in mind many of these companies were silversmiths before the war, it may well have been a case of suitably durable stamps not being readily available to cope with the repeated high speed pressing into tempered steel, which may explain why some of the marks to be seen on brodies are rather faint. * The other possible exception to this observation is Leadbeater & Scott, who as you have seen used to use an entwined letter L&S before the war. Again as you point out it used to appear within a triangle, but I suspect not every time, which I think is why it’s listed twice on the trademark document you have found. The second listing is simply LS (in triangle) suggesting to me that this is for the benefit of those finding a plain L&S mark.
On the subject of silversmiths, somewhere in the past I came across an article about how the brodie design was arrived at by John Brodie. Its well recognized that it resembles the helmet as worn by medieval pike men etc, and that this must have influenced his thinking; I'm sure it may well have done, but in the piece I refer to it was suggested that Brodie could see the desperate need to get something into production asap and consequently made use of an existing but adapted large soup tureen press tool. I should very much like to see if this idea can be verified, but the article I read did not provide a source which rather made me suspect it was urban myth? On the other hand it makes perfect sense to me.
Concerning a full up In Box, I regret you were correct Sean, but it's been cleared out now!
Dave

[THE SHINY SEVENTH]

Hi Dave, my point exactly re: the LS stamp. I would not be at all suprised if other faint marks were revealed on a lot of Brodies if the paint was removed(dont all rush out to the hardware shop for paint stripper though)but if you apply a common business technique which was probably not uncommon even in 1915, and use other manufacturing companies to help you meet your production targets, they could in turn leave their mark somewhere on the product. The Brodie pattern was as simple a design you could wish for, as far as making the tooling to produce it, therefore the cost of making a spare set of press tools would have been relatively inexpensive. I would wager there were a number of silent Brodie producers back then, but only the main contractors taking credit for stampings. I think it was Wardog that mentioned on another thread, that he had an LS stamp, it would be interesting to know if like mine MS/HS/FS is stamped over it or around the same area, thus trying to disguise a sub-contractor? I too would imagine the soup tereen story an urban myth, but because of certain similarities in size more so than shape, I can see how people would go along with it, but in reality it would probably take longer to rework the tooling than it would to start from scratch! Regards Sean

[THE SHINY SEVENTH]

Hi All, was not entirely happy with Bales after all, and on finding out that split rivets are still a purchasable item, have removed and re-made to what I hope is the final spec. These are of thinner gauge metal which I think is closer to original Brodie spec and I have manged to make the loops a bit narrower, which again I think is closer to original design. Very quick and simple to make, and as long as I am not inundated with orders, anyone that is in need of replacements can PM me for  address and send SAE and I shall post back F.O.C. If anyone can see an obvious problem from the photo below, please let me know asap before I go ahead and fit them, many thanks Sean p.s. have you all been checking your peak's for an LS?

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•  DSC_0019 (280x187).jpg   89.29K   3 downloads

[GRANVILLE]

Hi Sean,

I've sent you an email on the subject of the bales and mentioned I'd send you a scale drawing. If however you go to Post No 13 in which I've photoed an original bale, I provide the measurements in the post, but I've just noticed that the photo you get on screen is actual size by some freaky chance (or it is at my end) i.e. if you apply a ruler to the picture the sizes you get are the actual sizes of the bale - 3/4" left to right & 7/8" top to bottom. I've offered Imperial sizes because its my guess this is what they used at the time which is why they round up so well. Never did get Metric anyway.

Let me know if you'd still like a drawing, not a problem.

Dave

Thought I might as well add the drawing. Despite what I said above, I actually find the hole centre's to be 5mm from the edge of the bale, so you now have a mix of Metric & Imperial. Hope it can be seen?
For anyone considering making some of these, I found a cut up tin (soup) provided ideal material and for the bent wire I would suggest either a piece of wire coat hanger (the very basic thinner gauge type), or a piece of brass brazing rod; brass being the original material of choice I believe. Fold the bale over a length of the wire being used and crimp it together, so a neat tubular section is formed for the wire keeper. Having bent the keeper into shape, open up the bale again and insert the keeper. Close the bale again and attach to the helmet rim with a suitable rivet.

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•  BALE DRAWING.JPG   6.2K   1 downloads
•  WIRE KEEPER.JPG   4.91K   2 downloads

[Wardog]

Link to my Brodie rim. I will get around to taking further pictures but I don't think they would show more details. I would like opinion on exactly what the markings are in the oval stamp. Cheers, Paul.
http://1914-1918.inv...1

[GRANVILLE]

Wardog, on 24 November 2011 - 08:23 PM, said:

Link to my Brodie rim. I will get around to taking further pictures but I don't think they would show more details. I would like opinion on exactly what the markings are in the oval stamp. Cheers, Paul.
http://1914-1918.inv...1

Paul,

That is the MIRIS Trade Mark. The lettering within the oval spells MIRIS, but they use a reversed letter R back to back with a normal one so as to give the trademark symmetry.

Dave

[Wardog]

Is there not a Y on each side? Regards, Paul.

[Wardog]

Or are they both I with split ends?? Has this mark been found mentioned anywhere?

[GRANVILLE]

Sean found this link the other day and posted it, but it takes a few moments to access as it's a huge doccument. If you go onto it and scroll down to the M's you'll find MIRIS and the trademark to which I refer. I can't lift a copy off it and haven't seen it reproduced anywhere else as yet, but once you see the reproduction, you'll see exactly what I mean.

http://www.docstoc.c...E-METAL-TABLEWA

[GRANVILLE]

Paul,

I do appologise as you make a valid observation which I have completely overlooked. The company concerned is MIRIS spelt as such (see trade catalogue etc), but the trademark under discussion for some reason appears to be spelt MYRYS and I have no explanation as to why they have done this, other than some form of stylisation of the letters?
Dave

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•  MYRYS.JPG   22.81K   0 downloads

[Wardog]

Stuck with it this time- page 162. Good find Sean. I had not fully taken in your post 56. Regards Paul.

[THE SHINY SEVENTH]

Ive just sat writing for 20mins to update thread and manged to delete it all , so here goes an abbreviated version. Thanks paul, I doubt our 2 will be the last to surface with the LS stamp. I would imagine that they are pretty thin on the ground, but as I mentioned the other day, i think its highly likely that Leadbeater stamped those early War office pattern shells and MIRIS restamped them in house before the government men came to collect. It seems that no more than 4,000 were stamped before the 'B' type prototype won the day and was massed produced by a number of companies, as we know. There is a good chance that the production was shared between the two, but it was only a 25,000 part order, so why double up on the tooling for what amounted to a few days production run? I'd put money on anyone that has a MIRIS stamp finding an LS somewhere if they looked hard enough(sticking my neck out a bit here). When I signed up 2 weeks ago, I never thought I'd cause such a stir within the Brodie appreciation Society , hopefully i wont delete this, regards Sean

[Lancashire Fusilier]

Sean,
Great to see your restoration project is making excellent progress, and please remember, the bales do not retain the leather chin strap, they retain and guide the leather strap that passes either side of the helmet dome, and is secured to the middle of the helmet dome by a single rivet.
It is this helmet dome strap, with an oblong loop fitting at each end, which retains the chin strap.
Just before the helmet dome leather strap passes through the bale loop ( about an inch or so ), there is a split pin which secures the helmet dome leather strap to the helmet liner.
The photographs I previously posted show this fitting sequence.
If you need any drawings or measurements, please let me know.
Regards,
Leo

[Andrew Upton]

Lancashire Fusilier, on 25 November 2011 - 01:08 AM, said:

...please remember, the bales do not retain the leather chin strap, they retain and guide the leather strap that passes either side of the helmet dome, and is secured to the middle of the helmet dome by a single rivet...

Leo, whilst this is true for the later pattern liner, it is not correct for the very earliest helmets which are generally being discussed here - these did indeed have the chinstrap (of two piece construction joined by a tongued buckle for adjustment, as opposed to the later one piece chinstrap with a sliding buckle) which was fitted directly to the chinstrap bails, the liner at this time not being connected to it and being retained only by the rivet at the top. Although the chinstrap is possibly a period replacement of a similar style the general format is clearly shown in the following picture of an original (which has had the black six-tongued part of the liner removed, a popular but unofficial modification often encountered on originals). This is why the earliest loops are very narrow compared to the latter, wider, loops:

http://www.helmetsan...mages/B91-3.jpg

[Lancashire Fusilier]

Andrew,
You are absolutely correct.
Sean had earlier made reference to a remnant of a leather strap still being attached to the dome rivet in his helmet, I therefore assumed his helmet originally had the later style liner where the chin straps were not attached directly to the bales. I guess it will all depend on the type of repro liners available, be they the earlier or later style.
Excellent photograph of the first pattern liner.
Regards,
Leo

[GRANVILLE]

Sean.
I have to admit I keep losing sight of the fact that you have a particularly early shell on your hands and that via MHW it looks as if they can supply a suitable liner for it - I didn't think this early type was reproduced. As Andrew points out the very early type is quite different from the later original type I keep referring to and as you can see from Andrew's picture the bales you have produced look pretty well spot-on for the task you have undertaken. Do you know if MHW's repro liner will have the chin-strap fasten direct to the bales or not?
Dave