33 replies to this topic

[Chris_Baker]

http://www.telegraph...-be-jailed.html

[TRAJAN]

I'd rather see the scrap merchant banged up. She may have had an excuse of kinds for her behavior in stealing, but not the scrap merchant for his/hers, in buying the thing, without a doubt, IMHO, as to what it was.

Trajan

[Steven Broomfield]

I have to say I have no problem with a term inside. Who knows, done properly they could even treat her alcoholism and put her back on the straight and narrow.

I do, however, commend the dealer who refused to buy it.

[ph0ebus]

Steven Broomfield, on 23 November 2011 - 12:59 PM, said:

I do, however, commend the dealer who refused to buy it.

I would agree, had he asked her to wait a moment to "go get the money" and called the cops while she was still in his place of business.

Doing time will do one of two things: rehabilitate her or make her a much more damaged and dysfunctional human being than she was before she went in.  Not that this should be factored in to that decision making, but something to think about.

-Daniel

[Andy Wade]

Maybe he did call them and they just gave him a crime number and popped in to see him three days later...

[Staffsyeoman]

I know this church reasonably well. Unfortunately as the memorial was sold on to a mysterious (mythical?) 'Polish man'  it is  unlikely to be recovered. But the link to the Daily Express - and Daily Mail - showed a photo of the memorial, so perhaps it could be reconstituted.   But claiming on the one hand that she had relations 'in the war' yet did nor know what this memorial represented stretches my credulity somewhat - probably more a pitch to the court than any sincerity.

Thank Goodness the memorial to the 11th (Lewisham) Battalion, Royal West Kents - which is almost directly opposite this church - has no bronze on it.  (It is, sad to say, however - very, very badly eroded).

[Steven Broomfield]

Staffsyeoman, on 23 November 2011 - 01:40 PM, said:

  But claiming on the one hand that she had relations 'in the war' yet did nor know what this memorial represented stretches my credulity somewhat - probably more a pitch to the court than any sincerity.

Didn't stop Charlie Gilmour, did it - with an education this woman never received!

[ph0ebus]

Who wants to try and locate her ancestor...raise yer hand!

Daniel

[anneca]

My hand's up already!  I reckon the 'ancestor' would thoroughly agree she should be locked up.

ph0ebus, on 23 November 2011 - 02:51 PM, said:

Who wants to try and locate her ancestor...raise yer hand!

Daniel

[John Hartley]

TRAJAN, on 23 November 2011 - 12:36 PM, said:

I'd rather see the scrap merchant banged up.

On what grounds?

As far as I can see, all he might have done is contact the police rather than just refusing to buy it. But then, I suspect there are many members here who have chosen not to report a possible crime they've seen happening - I'm certainly one of them.

[John Hartley]

Steven Broomfield, on 23 November 2011 - 12:59 PM, said:

Who knows, done properly they could even treat her alcoholism and put her back on the straight and narrow.

Without wishing to go off on the usual tangent that these sorts of threads generate, I'd suspect that's unlikely, Steve. The more successful treatments for alcoholism of criminals is when they're on community sentences - as they're being treated while they're under real life pressures, rather than tnan enforced abstinence in the nick.

[MichaelBully]

I find it very hard to be objective about any insult or damage to war memorials. I have spent a great deal of time trying to research and highlight local Great War dead in this area, and have used Church war memorials. Some of the ones I have found are absolutely wonderful sources of  information.
I would rather the Courts hear arguments from both the Prosecution and the Defence and then decide on what punishment is appropriate taking into account any mitigating factors.

Last year I think that there was a call to make damage of any kind to a war memorial a more aggravated charge than other acts of criminal damage, but I am not sure if this proposal ever reached Parliament.
'The Sunday Telegraph' attempted to revive this proposal it seems.

http://www.telegraph...paign-aims.html

EDIT -an update today

http://www.telegraph...k-campaign.html

[centurion]

John Hartley, on 23 November 2011 - 06:04 PM, said:

But then, I suspect there are many members here who have chosen not to report a possible crime they've seen happening - I'm certainly one of them.

I do hope not

[Ice tiger]

See my post (number 12) in this similar thread HERE

Andy

[Jonathan_nw]

Not much chance in recovering the original but at least there is enough information available to replace it. Some consolation at least.

http://lewishamwarme...w1-war-memorial

http://lewishamwarme...-memorial-names

[Wainfleet]

In my world the robbery of pensioners with violence, or the endangering of life to steal a tenner's worth of electrical cable, is "the lowest of the low". My guess is that the men named on the memorials would have thought those crimes a lot more serious than the theft of bronze plaques, which after all can be replaced. Obviously I find this abhorrent, but however offensive it is, far worse things are happening in Britain today.

[centurion]

Wainfleet, on 24 November 2011 - 09:54 AM, said:

In my world the robbery of pensioners with violence, or the endangering of life to steal a tenner's worth of electrical cable, is "the lowest of the low". My guess is that the men named on the memorials would have thought those crimes a lot more serious than the theft of bronze plaques, which after all can be replaced. Obviously I find this abhorrent, but however offensive it is, far worse things are happening in Britain today.

I'd agree, there was a case recently, near here, of a BT concrete manhole cover being removed, presumably in the hope of finding and nicking cables. However all that was below was a flooded shaft. The cover was not replaced and in the dark that evening a lady walking her dog fell down it. Fortunately she was able to feel a ladder rung set in the side of the shaft and escape soaked, frozen and bruised. Passers by rescued her dog. She could easily have died.

[hillgorilla]

I think that what is sad, is that if it was any other act of stealing, would it gain as much publicity? I think that all crime is abhorent to society, but in the light of  prisons filling up, what would be gained to society by the incarseration of this woman. Yes, she needs punnished, and prison may be the answer,  but if a custodial sentence is given, would it not be best to solve the reason of why the crime may have been committed in the first place, such as the problem of alcohol at the same time of the sentence. Before I am said to be soft, I have encountered crime on a personal basis, and affecting my family. My grandfathers medals (including the Military Cross and Territorial Decoration ) and the WW1 medal from his uncle (killed 1915) were stolen in the 1960s by the local village police officer. Since then, not seen again - either melted down or lie in the collection of a medal collector. I see that as desecration of my own family memorial and the bravery of my grandfather - gained under severe shellfire in Italy 1944. The 'respectable' officer of the law got a custodial sentence, it just shows that it is all parts of society who commint crime.

[MichaelBully]

Yes that's why I find would rather leave the question of a sentence to the Courts. I as an individual obviously have strong feelings about the Great War and memorials. But I can appreciate the legal system have to deal with a whole array of crimes and the perspective of the Courts could be different.
On a more positive note I hope more people will start to take notice of the memorial plaques in churches, and realise their importance.

HillGorilla- also agree with a lot of you say. And sorry to hear what happened to your family's war medals.....yes even the most seemingly respectable citizens can be capable of greed and spite.

Wainfleet, on 24 November 2011 - 09:54 AM, said:

In my world the robbery of pensioners with violence, or the endangering of life to steal a tenner's worth of electrical cable, is "the lowest of the low". My guess is that the men named on the memorials would have thought those crimes a lot more serious than the theft of bronze plaques, which after all can be replaced. Obviously I find this abhorrent, but however offensive it is, far worse things are happening in Britain today.

[mike n]

Scrap Metal Dealers are required to keep written records as to who they have brought the scrap from and those records are available to Police to check anytime they wish as also to enter scrapyards to look for stolen scrap.

Bearing in mind how many of the 'plaques' have been stolen around the country I wonder how many Police checks have been made

[centurion]

mike n, on 01 December 2011 - 11:51 AM, said:

Scrap Metal Dealers are required to keep written records as to who they have brought the scrap from and those records are available to Police to check anytime they wish as also to enter scrapyards to look for stolen scrap.

Bearing in mind how many of the 'plaques' have been stolen around the country I wonder how many Police checks have been made

And I wonder how many Micheal Mouses and the like are recorded in those records and how many records have not been made. As long as it's a cash business records like this are useless. There's no way of checking anything. A cheque creates a record that can be checked up on and followed. "Well Sir I see that you issued a cheque for forty pounds to a William Sykes last week yet there is no record of this in your scrap purchases - would you like to explain this?"
If nothing else taking the cash element away would probably close up considerable tax evasion.

[mike n]

I agree that cheques together with details of vehicles would help. Of course a bit of old fashioned Police patrolling stopping vehicles would good some way to stop this

[Grantowi]

centurion, on 01 December 2011 - 12:19 PM, said:

There's no way of checking anything.

A Merchant with a pair of eyes and minimum amount of morals are all that is required (maybe with a reward for informing plod)
Just how hard can it be to recognise a War Plaque ?

Grant

[centurion]

Grantowi, on 01 December 2011 - 10:00 PM, said:

A Merchant with a pair of eyes and minimum amount of morals are all that is required (maybe with a reward for informing plod)
Just how hard can it be to recognise a War Plaque ?

Grant

You're missing "the bleeding obvious" - an honest scrap merchant. Without a record of payments independent of the scrap merchant (ie not cash in hand) the police cannot check anything

And the police are not dedicated to just looking for memorials - they need to check for all thefts. Don't get tunnel vision on this.

[Grantowi]

centurion, on 01 December 2011 - 11:26 PM, said:

You're missing "the bleeding obvious" - an honest scrap merchant. Without a record of payments independent of the scrap merchant (ie not cash in hand) the police cannot check anything

Are you saying that ALL scrap metal merchants are dishonest ? - isn't there a rule about posting defamatory remarks ?

And what muppet would write a recipt out for a war memorial ?
More likly to be "X Lbs / Kilo's of brass" and how do you prove that to be a memorial ?

Quote

And the police are not dedicated to just looking for memorials - they need to check for all thefts. Don't get tunnel vision on this.

Which is where a reward for informing plod would come in, plod wouldn't need to waste resources checking they would just have to respond to a phone call. It's not tunnel vision, more a case of comman sense.

Grant