13 replies to this topic

[bobliss]

My wife’s uncle – Robert Downham, b: 1896 - served with the 1/5 Manchester Regiment and was killed in the Gallipoli campaign. His date of death was 14^th August 1915 and the citation says ‘died at sea’. I have a copy of the war diaries for the Regiment and at that time they were at the Rest Bivouacs having sustained many injuries the previous week.



Was there a Hospital Ship in the vicinity where serious casualties were taken from the fighting? Is this why Robert Downham ‘died at sea’?

[John Hartley]

Almost certainly a hospital ship bound for Malta or Egypt. As you say, lots of casualties in the preceeding days - most possibly the attack at the Vineyard on the 6th.

[gr/am1917]

bobliss, on 28 November 2011 - 03:37 PM, said:

My wife's uncle – Robert Downham, b: 1896 - served with the 1/5 Manchester Regiment and was killed in the Gallipoli campaign. His date of death was 14^th August 1915 and the citation says 'died at sea'. I have a copy of the war diaries for the Regiment and at that time they were at the Rest Bivouacs having sustained many injuries the previous week.



Was there a Hospital Ship in the vicinity where serious casualties were taken from the fighting? Is this why Robert Downham 'died at sea'?

My Grandfather ( born 1895)  was due to join either the Welsh Guards , or the RAMC, when he signed up in the Summer of 1915.  He said that a Hospital Ship went down in the Mediterranean Sea. He said he was given the option of RAMC after such a disaster and he was happy to take it. I was told a ship was sunk " off Malta" but there were probably quite a few similar disasters. He joined the 92nd Field Ambulance in France, which was on the Western Front for the duration.  They got to France by November 1915.  Often in the major pushes.  
I know this isnt directly relevant to your query, but it is oral evidence of such an event.
Cheers, AM/GR1917

C

[Simon Mills]

There were very few hospital ships actually in the Gallipoli area. The usual procedure was to evacuate the more seriously wounded to Mudros, on the Greek island of Lemnos (about fifty miles from the Gallipoli peninsula). Here the men would be hospitalised until the larger hospital ships sent out from England could be used to repatriate them.

If the citation says that your wife's uncle died at sea then this either means that it happened whilst he was being evacuated to Lemnos, or that he could have died on the vessel that was taking him home, in which case with few exceptions he would probably have been buried at sea that same day. If this is the case then it's possible that you might find some record of his death in the hospital ship's log book. The largest vessel on the Southampton to Mudros service at that time was the HMHS Aquitania, and this log book can be found in the National Archives at Kew.

SM.

[alan two]

Hi Everyone

My Grandfather was evacuated from Gallipoli to Malta on HMHS Assaye in early December 1915.  The National Archive holds the Admission and Discharge Books for the ship within MH106 series.  The Admission Books are useful in that they give Regiments, names, ranks, and company details along with the type of wound etc; indeed there are some details of operations that were carried out on board.   There are also references to casualties that died at sea.  During my Grandfather's evacuation some casualties were disembarked at Mudros but the majority went to Malta.   Unfortunately the records are not digitised and you will need to visit Kew to look at them.


Kind regards
Alan

[Northern Soul]

It sounds like he could have been a casualty on the SS Royal Edward (plenty of info about her loss on the internet), although the date of sinking was the 13th rather than the 14th. I'm not really sure how you would resolve it to be honest.

If he had died of wounds on a hospital ship having been evacuated from Gallipoli then Soldiers Died would say "d. of w. (at Sea)", if I recall correctly - have you checked Soldiers Died in the Great War (you mentioned a citation)?.

One thing you could do is have a look at his medal index card available online from the National Archives/Ancestry - or you could ask someone on here to look it up if you don't have access to Ancestry - and, if it shows his ONLY medal entitlement to be the British War Medal then you can take it that he was on his way to Gallipoli (his ultimate destination, because the transports didn't go directly to Gallipoli) as part of a reinforcement draft rather than a casualty who had been evacuated from the peninsula. If it is the case then I would have thought that it is highly likely that he was on the Royal Edward and there may have been some confusion over the date. Alternatively, if his MIC shows entitlement to all three medals and a date of landing in an overseas theatre which co-incides with the landing of the 1/5th Manchesters as a unit then you can take it that he was wounded at Gallipoli and died on one of the hospital ships moored offshore.

Best wishes.

Andy.

[alan two]

Hi Everyone

Example extract from HMHS Assaye Admission and Discharge Book MH106/1935 with reference to a death and burial at sea

Kind regards

Alan

[bobliss]

These are very helpful replies - Thank you.

[Stebie9173]

Robert Downham is not mentioned in the Roll of honour in the book "Fastest to Canada" about the Royal Edward, but the roll does seem to be drawn from "Soldiers Died", so the date may have led to his exclusion. There is another 1/5th Manchesters man in the Roll - 3181 John Ashcroft of Wigan.


Soldiers Died lists both men as "Died of Wounds" and "At Sea". Both also had previous service on Gallipoli. The Royal Edward was sunk on the leg between Alexandria and Lemnos by a U-Boat operating out of Bodrum in Turkey. If both men were victims of the sinking of the Royal Edward then they may have been returning to Gallipoli after recovering from wounds or, perhaps more likely, illness.


Steve.

[stevebecker]

Mate,

I would agree that he died from wounds at sea and was buried at sea on the wat to a Hosp in any number of countries.

Althought therm HS (Hosptial Ship) is used most were just Transport ships that brought he troops to Gallipoli.

Like rgese I have on file;

ADELT Carl 554 Bugler 01 LHR C Sqn WIA 14-5-15 face/chin at Popes post (G) died on HS "Gascon" NKG listed on Lone Pine Memorial Gallipoli (AGA CMF 3 years) brothers Burton 1 FCE and Rudolph 12 LHR

ANDERSON Enderby Gordon Capt 3 LH Bde Trn 12Co AASC WIA 28-7-15 serious on beach (G) died on HS "Rewa" listed on Lone Pine Memorial Gallipoli (British Sandhurst 2/Lt RASC 1908-1910)

ANNAND Victor William Joseph 85 Pte 1 LHFA B Sect WIA 7-8-15 abdomen at Popes post (G) died on HS "Delta" listed on Lone Pine Memorial Gallipoli (Naval Bde)

ARNOLD William Arden Egerton 946 Pte 3 LHFA 1R Tos 2-15 WIA 15-9-15 abdomen bomb wound near Sazli Beit Dere (G) died on HS "Nevasa" listed on Lone Pine Memorial Gallipoli (CMF 1 year) father Rev JW Arnold cousin JL Connor 8 LHR KIA

BAGOT Charles Ernest 263 Pte 03 LHR B Sqn WIA 9-11-15 abdomen at Destroyer Hill (G) died on HS "Neuralia" NKG listed on Lone Pine Memorial Gallipoli

BAKER Harold Louis 605 Pte 01 LHR 1R to C Sqn WIA 18-5-15 serious during Turk attack on Popes Post (G) died on HS "Galeka" NKG listed on Lone Pine Memorial Gallipoli

BALDIE David William 88 Pte 6 LHR A Sqn to Cpl WIA 6-6-15 abdoman at Lone Pine (G) died on HS "Sicilia" NKG listed on Lone Pine Memorial Gallipoli brother Robert 9Bn KIA

BAX Alexander (Alec) Hartley 524 Pte 03 LHR A Sqn WIA 28-5-15 head in HQ Gully behind Popes Hill (G) died on HS "Gascon" buried 3 miles off Gaba Tepe NKG listed on Lone Pine Memorial Gallipoli brothers Murray + Ben 3 LHR

BEATON Neil 489 Pte 7 LHR C Sqn WIA 23/24-8-15 minor reported one of 11 casulties by bombs under Maj Suttor at Lone Pine WIA 10-10-15 neck, leg & L/hand reported one of nine wounded when shelled at Ryries Post (G) died on HS "Formosa" NKG listed Lone Pine Memorial Gallipoli

BIRCHETT Arthur Leonard 237 Bugler 03 LHR B Sqn WIA 27-5-15 neck in HQ Gully behind Popes Hill (G) died on HS "Newmarket" NKG listed on Lone Pine Memorial Gallipoli

BOWSER Harry Laughlan 661 Pte 2 LH Bde HQ HQ to APostC Aust Div HQ 5-15 to Sgt 8-15 WIA 19-12-15 abdoman & chest (G) died on HS "Dunluce Castle" NKG listed on Lone Pine Memorial Gallipoli

BOYD William 2289 Pte 16Bn 6R ToS 7-15 WIA 12-9-15 abdomen hit in Reserve Gully (G) died on HS "Nevasa" NKG listed on Lone Pine Memorial Gallipoli shown as 10 LHR in grave register ?

CARR Roland Mansfield 244 Saddler 01 LHR B Sqn reported KO'ed a MG on deadmans ridge in charge at Popes Post (P) to Sgt 8-15 to SQMS B Sqn 8-15 WIA 16-11-15 chest/lungs reported wounded by bomb while showing a mate around Popes Post (G) died on HS "Somali" 44 miles north of Alexandria NKG listed on Lone Pine Memorial Gallipoli

And so on

S.B

[bobliss]

I have checked and it does say 'Died of Wounds - At Sea'. Is there a particular section of RAMC that I could research to find other diaries.

[Simon Mills]

In terms of diaries, there's probably not much in the way of information out there. These days it's very difficult (if not impossible) to get the nominal rolls of the medical staff who served on the hospital ships, let alone the patients, although it's possible that some of the official records kept on hospital ships may have survived. These can be found in the National Archives at Kew (in WO 95) -- for instance, in an earlier post I mentioned the hospital ship Aquitania, and the file reference for this particular ship is: WO 95/4142.

I'm afraid that without any specific information then all you can do is check each ship file by file until you find the reference that you seek (assuming that it's there), but in that the soldier that you seek was in the Manchesters and serving at Gallipoli, the chances are that he would have been in one of the larger hospital ships on the Southampton to Mudros service when he died. This narrows it down a bit, in which case the most likely candidates are Aquitania and possibly Mauretania. Having said that, some of the smaller hospital ships also made occasional runs back to the UK.

You could also try the Army Medical Services Museum but based on past experience I do not think that they hold any personal information on patients aboard the hospital ships. However, they may be able to give you a clue as to where to look:. If you want to try them then here is the address:

Army Medical Services Museum
Keogh Barracks
Ash Vale
Aldershot
GU12 5RQ

Tel: 01252 868820
Web: http://www.ams-museum.org.uk/museum/
E-Mail: armymedicalmuseum@btinternet.com

Regards,

Simon.

[KateH]

Hi there

By August 1915 I believe there were about 27 Hospital Ships operating in the Mediterranean and quite a number of the smaller ones went up to the Peninsula. There were also 'black ships', transports used to carry casualties with supposedly more minor wounds or sickness. Unfortunately, the Archives at Kew do not hold the ship's records for most of these hospital ships for 1915 - obviously removed at some stage but I haven't found to where.

Good luck with your search

cheers

Kirsty

[muzza]

My great great uncle died on the Gascon and was buried at sea, same day of General Bridges. His name is on the Lone Pine Monument. Many soldiers were taken to the hospital ships and died of their wounds.

693 Lcpl Robert Dendtler
1 Battalion - 1st Infantry Brigade A.I.F.
Wounded Gallipoli 15 May 1915
Severe gunshot wound in the chest and arm
Died 7.15am 16 May 1915 on board HMHS Gascon
Buried at sea 3 miles off Gallipoli
by Chaplain from HMS Prince of Wales