12 replies to this topic

[Lancashire Fusilier]

Earlier, I had responded to a Forum member enquiring about rifles used by South African troops during WW1.
I had such a rifle in my Collection, a 1909 BSA .303 Long Lee-Enfield, issued to the Witwatersrand Rifles, and sent details to the post.
I then realized, I knew nothing about the men who may have used this rifle. I know that the Witwatersrand Rifles fought bravely during the Battle of the Somme, and in particular at the battle of Delville Wood.
I know they have close ties with Scottish Highland Regiments, and their Regimental Tartan is the Douglas Tartan, and their Regimental March is a bagpipe and drums tune.
I would appreciate hearing form any member about the Witwatersrand Rifles, their WW1 history, their badges, uniform, and any WW1 photographs, particularly any showing them carrying or using the 1909 BSA Long Lee-Enfield rifle.
Many thanks in advance.
LF.

More Witwatersrand Rifle pics.

One more pic.

Attached Files

•  SA BSA.jpg   82.8K   3 downloads
•  SA BSA 2.jpg   32.78K   4 downloads
•  SA BSA 3.jpg   34.95K   3 downloads
•  SA BSA 4.jpg   43.54K   1 downloads

[4thGordons]

This query might get more information posted in the "Units and Formations" section rather than here. Although you have posted pics of an excellent and interesting example of the CLLE it would appear your question here is broader than "arms"
Are there any wrist markings on the rifle? if so what are they?
Chris

[Lancashire Fusilier]

Chris,
Many thanks for the reply.
Can I change my post to Units and Formations ? or do I have to resubmit the post again ?
This rifle first appeared in BSA's 1909 Sales Catalogue, as the " well known Long Lee-Enfield Pattern Rife, which has been modified by the introduction of a High Velocity Nickle Steel Barrel, new Back Sight, Leaf and Bed, new Fore Sight and Protector, Charger Bridge and new deeper 10 Round Magazine ". The rifle also has a magazine cut-off.
This rifel has all matching serial numbers, with the one being modified and given a South African Witwatersrand Serial Number.
The wrist markings are - " B.S.A. Co. "
The rifle also has South African Military issue marks.
The Rifle also has other extras such as a BSA No.5 Wind Gauge Sight Slide, the Nose Cap and Lower Band are asbestos lined to allow for equal barrel expansion, Enfield Military Pattern safety catch, the sighting notches are " U " instead of " V " shaped, and are Platinum inlaid.
The Walnut stock has an inlaid regimental brass disc.
The overal rifle length is 4 ft 1.5 inches.
The barrel lenght is 31.25 inches.
The rifle weight is 9 lbs 6 oz.
This rifle is in superb working order, and is extremely accurate.
Regards,
Leo

[4thGordons]

If / When a Moderator sees this thread s/he may well move it for you.
Very interesting and fine example.
Chris

[Lancashire Fusilier]

Thanks Chris, hopefully my post will get moved to Units & Formations.
Leo

[shippingsteel]

Lancashire Fusilier, on 30 November 2011 - 01:11 AM, said:

This rifel has all matching serial numbers, with the one being modified and given a South African Witwatersrand Serial Number.

Just on the rifle, may I ask how you know that the rifle was issued to the Witwatersrand Rifles.? Does it have any other providence or documentation attached.?
Obviously it has the WR stamped on the receiver with the new serial number, but was it an established practice to stamp unit abbrevs alongside the serial numbers.?
This is simply a question out of interest, as I have not seen mention of this ever being done before. Perhaps it was a routine occurence in SA which I am not aware of.

Cheers, S>S

[Lancashire Fusilier]

Shippingsteel
Many thnaks for the question.
It is the combination of both the South African ordnance marks ( issued and used after 1910 ), and the " WR " prefix - see pages 21 & 130 of Ian Skennerton's reference book " The Broad Arrow ", which identify this as a Witwatersrand Rifles issued rifle.
LF.

[shippingsteel]

Very nice rifle, by the way, and very well stamped with the SA government ownership markings. They are not something you see everyday either.
Does the brass butt-disk not have anything stamped.? And could you tell what the serial number on the barrel is.? It's an extremely interesting rifle.!

Cheers, S>S

[Lancashire Fusilier]

ShippingSteel,
The brass Butt Disc, has no markings.
The Bolt Arm, the underside of the Bolt, the underside of the Back Sight, and the Barrel are all stamped with the same matching Serial Number 7873.
If you would like any other photographs of the rifle, please let me know.
LF.

[Terrylee]

Although the rifle was obviously issued in South Africa, the "WR" in front of a number has nothing to do with the Witwatersrand Rifles. It stands for "Weapons Register" or "Wapens Register" in Afrikaans.  When firearms records were centralised, on the computerised firearms register in Pretoria, it was sometimes found that firearms of a similar calibre had duplicate serial numbers. The second weapon was then issued by the police with a unique Weapons Register serial number which had to be stamped onto the weapon before it could be licenced or relicenced.  The same rule applies to certain older weapons such as Sniders which are sometimes found with no serial number at all. As a collector, I have a number of rifles stamped with WR numbers.

[Sepoy]

What a cracking rifle - I have always wanted a CLLE (more so than a decent SMLE No1 MkIII) as it was a rifle used by the TA, RND and many Colonial units which interest me. As for the unit markings (bit of a stupid question) have you removed the Butt Marker to see if it is screwed in back to front?
Sepoy

[Lancashire Fusilier]

Terrylee, on 20 May 2012 - 11:35 AM, said:

Although the rifle was obviously issued in South Africa, the "WR" in front of a number has nothing to do with the Witwatersrand Rifles. It stands for "Weapons Register" or "Wapens Register" in Afrikaans.  When firearms records were centralised, on the computerised firearms register in Pretoria, it was sometimes found that firearms of a similar calibre had duplicate serial numbers. The second weapon was then issued by the police with a unique Weapons Register serial number which had to be stamped onto the weapon before it could be licenced or relicenced.  The same rule applies to certain older weapons such as Sniders which are sometimes found with no serial number at all. As a collector, I have a number of rifles stamped with WR numbers.

Many thanks for the information, the " WR " designation and what it means, has been the subject of previous discussions on another thread, and it is nice to have it confirmed by a South African collector.
Regards,
LF

[Lancashire Fusilier]

Sepoy, on 20 May 2012 - 12:39 PM, said:

What a cracking rifle - I have always wanted a CLLE (more so than a decent SMLE No1 MkIII) as it was a rifle used by the TA, RND and many Colonial units which interest me. As for the unit markings (bit of a stupid question) have you removed the Butt Marker to see if it is screwed in back to front?
Sepoy

Good question, and as yet, I have not removed the butt disc to see if it has been reversed, I may do that and see if there is any unit marking on the other side.
Regards,
LF