48 replies to this topic

[centurion]

Aurel Sercu, on 18 December 2011 - 06:51 PM, said:

Roel,

But the mention of the farm on page 57 refers to 22 April. Correct ?

Centurion,

Thanks for making it even ... more complicated !  

So now we also have a Candit Fraere. Sure this must be a misreading of Candit Troere (and not the opposite), and Candit Troere in turn an error for ...

Vlamertinghe Farm ... That rings a bell, but right now I can't find it. The same as Shell Trap Farm ? (This one later changed its name in Mouse Trap Farm. And Mouse Trap Farm / Shell Trap Farm is almost 2 km southeast of Candit Troere Farm)

The search goes on.  :-)

Aurel

If the Canadians when in occupancy before the Germans arrived (and presumably able to talk to some locals) surely they would have the right name?

[Aurel Sercu]

Centurion,

Yes, that's true.
But the question remains : is "Candit Fraere", as it can be found in the 1919 publication (I checked it, the paper version is on line, and indeed, that is the way it was printed in 1919) the correct form ? It must have  been taken from a handwritten text, and maybe there was a misreading or error ?

I have tried to find the CEF 2nd Bn. war diaries of April 1915 on line, but unsuccessfully. (Can't find my way anymore on "archivianet"   :-(  )

Aurel

[CROONAERT]

Aurel Sercu, on 19 December 2011 - 10:50 AM, said:

I have tried to find the CEF 2nd Bn. war diaries of April 1915 on line, but unsuccessfully. (Can't find my way anymore on "archivianet"   :-(  )

Here you go, Aurel .... 2 CEF 1914-1916

[Aurel Sercu]

Thanks Dave,

(How come I didn't find it myself ? And I still can't ! But I'll send you a PM explaining. I do not want all members to read why I feel like an ... idi*t.  :-)  "

I went through the pages that I thought would be relevant, but ... to no avail. No mention of "Candit Troere / Candit Fraere". And even more surprising : 2nd Bn. was 1.5 km away from there (southeast of it). So there seems to be some disagreement between the war diaries and the other text in which Candit Fraere was mentioned. Odd.

Or maybe I made some error. (I told you : I feel a little like an id**t.  :-)

Aurel

[roel22]

...or there were a Candit Fraere AND a Candit Troere farm, close to each other...

Roel

[Aurel Sercu]

Roel,

You sure know how to motivate a man !  

Aurel

[centurion]

Or there were the Candit brothers (Candit Freres) who moved around a bit.

[Siege Gunner]

Is there a local Chamber of Agriculture that covers Boezinghe, and if so might it have a historian/archivist or interested member who you could ask whether any of these words/names ring any bells?

[Aurel Sercu]

Mick,

No idea ... But I have looked around in all sorts of books and lists of the Ypres area round 1900, and no sign of a name (surname of inn name or so) that looks or sounds like it....

Right now I will have a look in other Canadian War diaries on line where the place may have been mentioned.

And then I will inquire about the "Candit Sisters" (sounds a little like a pre-war "meidengroep", a female band in pop music)    
Sorry, Centurion, couldn't resist ... But who knows .... Frères > Fraer ?

Aurel

[egbert]

Aurel, have a cup of tea and relax

Attached Images

• 

[roel22]

I get visions of soldiers in trenches trowing sugar cubes instead of grenades... "In an hour we attack Candit Troere, boys! So we'll have sugar in our coffee tonight!"

Roel

[egbert]

roel22, on 21 December 2011 - 10:32 AM, said:

... "In an hour we attack Candit Troere, boys! So we'll have sugar in our coffee tonight!"

Roel

Dulce et decorum est pro patria mori

[centurion]

Do they grow much sugar beet in that area? If so there could well be more than one place with Candit in its name and Sugar factories/mills have figured elsewhere on the WF

[roel22]

egbert, on 21 December 2011 - 11:03 AM, said:

Dulce et decorum est pro patria mori

Very dulce indeed...!

Roel

[Aurel Sercu]

Hey guys, you are trying to go off topic, with your sugar (beets).
But one day I will solve the Candit Troere mystery.

And then my revenge will be ... sweet.

Yes, as sweet as s*g*r.  

Aurel

[centurion]

Aurel Sercu, on 21 December 2011 - 01:20 PM, said:

Hey guys, you are trying to go off topic, with your sugar (beets).

Not at all - quite possibly relevant if Candit has a connection with sugar

[Aurel Sercu]

Centurion,

Yes, I know you at least were serious.  

But my question about Candit remains. At first sight it looks like it may have a link with sugar indeed. But does it ? Also in German ? (the C- is un-German, isn't it.)

So far all we know about the word Candit (also thanks to Egbert)is that it is (or can be the name) of a race horse.

What about Flemish ?... Well, we have a word "kandij(suiker)", same as (sugar) candy, but in Flemish always with a k-, and never with a -t.

French ? The word is "(sucre) candi". It looks like it, true. But the farm name on French trench maps is always "Goumier Farm".

English ? Mmm ... the name of the Farm on British trench maps is Goumier (or misspelled Gournier).

And in all these cases : no link with the second element "Troere" ...  

It will be a great day for the world when we discover the origin ! What a pity the man who for the first time named it Candit Troere will never know....  
Maybe he is watching our search. And ... smiling.   :-)

Aurel

[centurion]

Aurel Sercu, on 21 December 2011 - 03:05 PM, said:

Centurion,

Yes, I know you at least were serious.  

But my question about Candit remains. At first sight it looks like it may have a link with sugar indeed. But does it ? Also in German ? (the C- is un-German, isn't it.)

So far all we know about the word Candit (also thanks to Egbert)is that it is (or can be the name) of a race horse.

What about Flemish ?...

As I said in an earlier post there was a Flemish painter called Peter Candit.

[Aurel Sercu]

Centurion,

True. (Sorry, I had forgotten to reply to your posting.)

P(i)eter de Witt(e), born (1548) in Bruges, as a child moved to Italy with his parents, and later to Munich.
His name went from the Italian translation Pietro Candido to Peter Candid / Candit.

I have tried to find a link with Troer(e), or Troy, or Trojans, but so far, to no avail.

Aurel

[centurion]

Aurel Sercu, on 21 December 2011 - 07:19 PM, said:

Centurion,

True. (Sorry, I had forgotten to reply to your posting.)

P(i)eter de Witt(e), born (1548) in Bruges, as a child moved to Italy with his parents, and later to Munich.
His name went from the Italian translation Pietro Candido to Peter Candid / Candit.

I have tried to find a link with Troer(e), or Troy, or Trojans, but so far, to no avail.

Aurel

But the Germans retained the C

[Aurel Sercu]

I should have posted this a month ago....
Sorry...

The thing is that - assisted by an acquaintance in Flanders, who actually did most of the work - is that now we know the name Candit Troere is not, or was not created by German troops at all. They simply took over what they read on older ... Belgian maps. So we (I) have a map now showing the name "Candit Troere Ferme" dating approx. 1870. And it very probably also can be found on a map even older (the so called Vander Maelen map, approx. 1850).

I did not mention that in this topic, for the simple reason that this is taking me far away from WW1, and hence had no relevance as to the Great War. But as I learned that a member, without me being aware of it, had "behind my back"   ;-) continued the search in the German direction (which of course was to no avail), I think it is my moral duty to inform.

Oh ... Where we are stading now ? Well, maybe Candit Troere on these Belgian 19th century maps, is a misreading or misspelling of French "candide troène" (English : white privet).
And yes, we know that "candide troène" also occurs in a piece of music written by Monteverdi.
Yes, Flemish farmers can be very educated or music loving.  :-)

The search goes on. But again : not WW1 related.

Aurel

[egbert]

Thanks god. I may sleep well from now on. Aurel, your Candit Troere enigma was the dream of my sleepless nights.

[Aurel Sercu]

Egbert,

Mine too.
Odd we never met.  
Next time wear something identifiable.   :-)

Aurel (66...  1 m 70 ... grey ...)

[centurion]

Aurel Sercu, on 31 January 2012 - 10:34 AM, said:

Oh ... Where we are stading now ? Well, maybe Candit Troere on these Belgian 19th century maps, is a misreading or misspelling of French "candide troène" (English : white privet).
And yes, we know that "candide troène" also occurs in a piece of music written by Monteverdi.
Yes, Flemish farmers can be very educated or music loving.  :-)

Given that White Privet was once a very popular hedging plant and decorative garden shrub (not so much now in H&S  obsessed days as its berries are poisonous) but one that needed more attention than common privet ( I can see one of my white privets out of the window as I type this). I would suspect that to be the answer. Close to where I live is a Beech Farm, a Birch Farm and a Sallings Farm. The latter is a corruption of the Latin for Willow. Some of these titles go back yonks (the local Roman garrison used to cut their willows from the nearby common). I would suspect that in Belgium it was also common to name locations after the trees and shrubs to be found there.