25 replies to this topic

[GRUMPY]

Can someone help an ignorant Sassenach please?

I would like a guide to sporrans to ID fotos of Highland Scots, [and Pipers of Lowland], in full dress.

My internet searches have left me a little short of understanding, as in many subjects.

And, if some kind souls can help, a "since when" for each design would be helpful.

And, if you want independence, thats OK, and if not, thats OK too!

[4thGordons]

I can take care of Gordons for you not much else photgraphically but I think somewhere I have a contemporary (I am thinking 1911/12) table that compares Sporrans of the different regiments (written description, no pics IIRC)
Should also note that there are variantions between Officers/ Senior NCOs/ ORs sporran patterns too within the same regiment - this is usually the degree or ornateness in the cantle (the metal bit at the top)Pipers too sometimes!
I will try and dig it out and post the table unless someone beats me to it.
Chris

[Andrew Upton]

4thGordons, on 13 January 2012 - 06:05 PM, said:

Should also note that there are variantions between Officers/ Senior NCOs/ ORs sporran patterns too within the same regiment - this is usually the degree or ornateness in the cantle (the metal bit at the top)Pipers too sometimes!

And sometimes variations between different battalions in the same regiment - a huge minefield...

[WilliamRev]

Here is the full dress uniform of a pipe major from the Royal Scots Fusiliers (the 1st and 2nd [ie Regular] Battalions (- I imagine that the Territorial and New Army battalions had similar but can't be certain) from around 1900 to 1928 showing piper's sporran.

[In 1928 the tartan changed from Government (ie Black Watch) to Dress Erskine (mostly red with dark green stripes), the doublet/jacket from green to blue, and possibly other aspects of the uniform as well, but the sporran stayed the same, even for the Royal Highland Fusiliers, until the very latest round of amalgamations.]

William

 Royal Scots Fusiliers piper 1914.jpg   82K   0 downloads

[4thGordons]

Full Dress details from 1911 Dress Regulations for the Army.
 Sporransweb.jpg   83.73K   0 downloads
Note: I believe this describes Officers' sporrans in full dress only.
Chris

[GRUMPY]

Many thanks ...... so, for crude recognition purposes in most cases, the colour of the hairy bit, and the colour and number of danglers is diagnostic?

Sort of ............

[Andrew Upton]

The A&SH dress badger sporrans as per the description supplied by Chris are suprisingly common still - I find them delightfully creepy myself...

http://www.ebay.com/...=item3cc079da97

[4thGordons]

GRUMPY, on 14 January 2012 - 10:04 AM, said:

Many thanks ...... so, for crude recognition purposes in most cases, the colour of the hairy bit, and the colour and number of danglers is diagnostic?

Sort of ............

with the emphasis on the latter!
I think in officers' full dress more so than with O/Rs. For example Gordons and Seaforths have white hair sporran with two black tassles. The cantles differ however.
I will try and dig out some pictures over the weekend (we get an extra day this week)
Chris

[WilliamRev]

Some more (mostly lowland) pipers' sporrans to add to Chris' highlanders and my Royal Scots Fusiliers (all of these are roughly 1900 until at least the end of the Great War):

The Royal Scots piper: white sporran with two black tassels, the cantle is a silver regimental crest with a distinctive black enamel background.

The King's Own Scottish borderers piper: very similar to Royal Scots, with white sporran and two black tassels, but the cantle is completely silver.

Scots Guards piper: white sporran with three black tassels, a silver cantle with black enamel background,

Highland Light Infantry piper: [getting complicated] pipers - white sporran  with three black tassels, a silver and black enamel cantle, very similar to Scots Guards apart from regimental crest on cantle. (I have seen a photo of a HLI pipe-major, taken in 1910, which shows him with six black tassels rather than the ordinary pipers' three) . HLI Officers and NCOs, in battalions which wore the kilt, had a wonderful black sporran with three white tassels, with a gold and black enamel cantle.

Scottish Rifles piper: [more complicated - the regular battalions insisted on being different from each other!]
1st battalion: ("The Cameronians") a black sporran with two white tassels and a silver cantle.
2nd battalion: ("2nd Scottish Rifles", never "Cameronians") a grey sporran with three black tassels, silver/white metal cantle.
I think that the Territorial battalions followed the 2nd Scottish Rifles pattern (since they did with cap-badges and other uniform details), but I don't know about the New Army battalions.


William

[GRUMPY]

Thank you all for contributing, I look fwd to pix.

[4thGordons]

Found a couple - will dig out more.
 Gordon.jpg   35.38K   0 downloads
Gordon Officer (as described above)

Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders
 Argyll.jpg   94.94K   0 downloads

[4thGordons]

Just to demonstrate the variety All Gordon Highlanders, all Great War or just before:

 Gord1913piperSporran.jpg   10.73K   1 downloads
Piper - photo dated 1913 (this is not the usual pattern in my experience)

 PiperdressSporran.jpg   20.42K   1 downloads
Piper - photo dates 1913-1915

 Gordpipersporran.jpg   15.5K   1 downloads
Piper (wartime photo probably 1916-18)

 GordonORdresssporran.jpg   21.1K   0 downloads
O/R - photo dates Oct 1914-Feb 1915

 GordPrewarNCOsporran.jpg   15.3K   0 downloads
Pre War NCO dress

 GorNCOsporran.jpg   13.44K   0 downloads
NCO

[GRUMPY]

Many thanks  ........ Gordons = 2 dark danglers on a pale hairy!

[WilliamRev]

GRUMPY, on 16 January 2012 - 03:57 PM, said:

Gordons = 2 dark danglers on a pale hairy!

Excellent! So the Argyll and Sutherlands = 6 white danglers on a black hairy, plus head of distinctly annoyed-looking badger.

[4thGordons]

GRUMPY, on 16 January 2012 - 03:57 PM, said:

Many thanks  ........ Gordons = 2 dark danglers on a pale hairy!

Yes.....but
 yesbut1.jpg   23.8K   0 downloads

 yesbut2.jpg   17.54K   0 downloads

and Argylls O/Rs don't get the Angry Badger!

 yesbut3.jpg   29.04K   0 downloads

Chris

[truthergw]

A hair sporran had to be trimmed to fit the wearer. An over enthusiastic recruit could easily end up with his own pattern. ( Like levelling the legs on a table).

[4thGordons]

truthergw, on 16 January 2012 - 05:41 PM, said:

A hair sporran had to be trimmed to fit the wearer. An over enthusiastic recruit could easily end up with his own pattern. ( Like levelling the legs on a table).

OR HE COULD JUST HITCH IT UP A BIT?
 or.jpg   27.16K   1 downloads

(Don't ask me - I have no idea what is going on here)

Chris

[GRUMPY]

no, and you don't want to!

Many thanks people, more, more, encore!

[ChrisH962]

Andrew Upton, on 14 January 2012 - 03:02 PM, said:

The A&SH dress badger sporrans as per the description supplied by Chris are suprisingly common still - I find them delightfully creepy myself...

http://www.ebay.com/...=item3cc079da97

It's the stunned expression on the Angry Badgers face that always amuses me...  A bit like the racoon caps worn by Canadians - but then, if you had a Mountie's head up your chuff...

[truthergw]

4thGordons, on 16 January 2012 - 06:00 PM, said:

OR HE COULD JUST HITCH IT UP A BIT?
or.jpg

(Don't ask me - I have no idea what is going on here)

Chris

Now that is a cracking picture! It also illustrates the fact that although the camera never lies, the guy in the picture might be having a laugh. I wonder if the corporal had just got his ticket?

[Joe Sweeney]

Grumpy,


I can't add too much to this except to say I hope you success. Except for basic ORs types I know very little and this is a frustrating topic.

I can only say I hope you can put together charts like you did for armbands for the sporran knowledge deficients like me.

Joe Sweeney

[GRUMPY]

Joe Sweeney, on 30 January 2012 - 08:22 PM, said:

Grumpy,


I can't add too much to this except to say I hope you success. Except for basic ORs types I know very little and this is a frustrating topic.

I can only say I hope you can put together charts like you did for armbands for the sporran knowledge deficients like me.

Joe Sweeney

Joe, thanks .... I will!

[FROGSMILE]

GRUMPY, on 30 January 2012 - 09:27 PM, said:

Joe, thanks .... I will!

This only shows the basics but it is at least a start.

Attached Files

•  Regimental_hair_sporrans (1).jpg   72.86K   1 downloads

[squirrel]

GRUMPY, on 30 January 2012 - 09:27 PM, said:

Joe, thanks .... I will!

Will the project include sporrans worn with KD in India?

[gordon92]

Grumpy,

I can give you a guide to sporrans for each Highland regiment in full dress, and possibly for Lowland pipers, that looks something like the following if you still need this info.  This is for the Black Watch as an example; the BW is actually a simple case with only three patterns of sporrans.

Let me know if you want more.

 phpmHPWTOAM.jpg   16.59K   0 downloads   ORs, Sergeants before approx 1904

 phpFsSFowAM.jpg   27.77K   1 downloads  Officers in review order, pipers, sergeants after 1904 (This picture is of the RSM)

 phpqPPPOqAM.jpg   37.55K   3 downloads  Officers in levee dress