26 replies to this topic

[Rob Chester]

Hello,

I have a reference to a Royal Navy camouflage pattern "Number 52A" does anybody now what this pattern looked like or where I might go to find out?

Regards

Robert

[wightspirit]

The National Archives have something on dazzle painting - references ADM1/1833/215 and ADM245/4.  


Dave W

[Rob Chester]

Thanks very much I will have a look next time I'm there.

Rob

[Gibeltarik]

The Royal Navy Library (part of the Royal Navy Museum) at Portsmouth has some books on Dazzle painted ships - one is in German. To gain access you will (a) have to have an appointment and ( take photo ID (like a passport). The Library is in the Naval Dockyard (access via the Historic Dockyard) and so a visit to the 'Pass Office' will get you a Dockyard ID card - once you have your appointment.

Once you enter the Historic Dockyard from The Hard, Portsmouth make your way towards HMS Victory. You will see some MOD Security Staff (normally in the centre of the road in high viz jackets) well before HMS Victory. The Pass Office is to the right very close to where they stand.

The Library is open Monday to Thursday 9am to 4pm On Fridays it is 9am to 12 noon. I have their 'phone number as 02392723795

Gibeltarik

[CULVERIN]

Hello Rob, ref design no 52a.

Can you say where this reference is. I am not familiar with 52a.

Design 52 was designed for use on WW1 Standard dry cargo merchant ships, but this is where it can get confusing.
My records state for Standard A2 type ships, many say there is no such type, it is type B.
Both were the same except type A was single deck, B 2 decks, hence the A2 sometimes used to denote a type B.

[Lancashire Fusilier]

Robert,

Attached are 2 photographs of WW1 Kil Class Gunboats with very nice Dazzle-Painting camouflage, and one without for comparison.
In the two photographs of the Kil Class Gunboats, both ends of the a single-funneled gunboat are made to look alike and a dummy bridge was constructed aft, making a plot of its course most difficult for an attacking U-Boat. Dazzle-painting added to the confusion.
As you probably know, from the beginning of WW1 schemes had been submitted to the Admiralty for camouflaging ships so that that they would appear invisible to their enemies at sea. From the bridge or lookout of another ship the camouflage seemed effective. But the U-Boat commander, scanning the sea for a victim, was not deceived. Through his periscope a ship stood out clearly, silhouetted against the sky. In any case the hydrophone nullified any attempt by the surface vessel to remain unseen and undetected. It was an artist, Norman Wilkinson, who turned the idea on its head by proposing that ships should be made conspicuous to the point of confusion. Wilkinson suggested that ships could be painted in such a way as to produce an optical illusion and mislead an ememy submarine as to the course, speed and size of its quarry and as to the correct position to take up for the attack.
The new system of ship camouflage became known as Dazzle-painting.

Regards,
LF

Attached Files

•  dazzle 2.jpg   32.39K   0 downloads
•  dazzle 1.jpg   34.8K   0 downloads
•  dazzle no 3.jpg   49.05K   0 downloads

[Lancashire Fusilier]

Robert,
Some more examples of Dazzle Camouflage on larger ships.
Regards,
LF

Attached Files

•  dazzle 4.jpg   41.98K   3 downloads
•  dazzle 5.jpg   58.12K   2 downloads
•  dazzle 6.jpg   84.22K   1 downloads
•  dazzle 7.jpg   27.13K   0 downloads
•  dazzle 8.jpg   49.12K   0 downloads
•  dazzle 9.jpg   49.23K   0 downloads
•  dazzle 10.jpg   28.91K   2 downloads
•  dazzle 11.jpg   50.41K   2 downloads
•  dazzle 12.jpg   22.45K   2 downloads

[TeeCeeCee]

These are some of the wildest dazzle patterns I've ever seen. The 3 funnel caged mast battleship 2nd from the bottom for one. The second is UUS Leviathan tied to a buoy. That could almost be the teeth of a sea-monster at the bow!

[RobL]

Not quite a ship, but Motor Launch 225 in a rather 'radiant' scheme

Attached Files

•  80ftlaunchml225.jpg   15.66K   0 downloads

[tootrock]

Off topic, but.....Was this ever used in WW2?

Martin

[Lancashire Fusilier]

RobL, on 07 July 2012 - 08:38 PM, said:

Not quite a ship, but Motor Launch 225 in a rather 'radiant' scheme

Great pattern, which makes it hard to easily tell the bow from the stern.
LF

[Lancashire Fusilier]

tootrock, on 07 July 2012 - 08:42 PM, said:

Off topic, but.....Was this ever used in WW2?

Martin

Martin,
Yes, Dazzle Camouflage was often used during WW2 by both the Allies and the Germans.
Here is the American ship USS Charles S. Sperry in June, 1944.
Regards,
LF

Attached Files

•  USS Charles S Sperry 1944.jpg   30.72K   1 downloads

[Lancashire Fusilier]

Because many of the WW1 photographs were in black and white, it gives the impression that Dazzle Camouflage was in black and white, whereas in reality, many of the Dazzle Camouflage patterns included colours.
Here is a painting showing the ship's actual coloured Dazzle Camouflage.
LF

More Dazzle Camouflage ships -
LF
2nd photo - HMS Rocksand
3rd photo - RMS Empress of Russia.

Attached Files

•  Coloured Dazzle.jpg   44.58K   0 downloads
•  HMS Rocksand.jpg   29.29K   0 downloads
•  RMS Empress of Russia.jpg   37.58K   0 downloads

[Simon Mills]

LF,

In case you haven't got a reference on file, the colour image (#1) in your post above is the S.S. Mauretania (Cunard Line).

Below is a picture of the dazzle camouflage scheme on the S.S. Olympic (White Star Line). This picture was apparently painted at Halifax in 1918/19 when the Canadian troops were returning home, so this would have been the final variant but looking at several images of Olympic throughout the war it's clear that the designs were evolving all the time. In fact, you can compare this image with your first in post no. 7.

Attached Files

•  OlympicR.jpg   87.46K   2 downloads

[Lancashire Fusilier]

Simon Mills, on 08 July 2012 - 11:40 AM, said:

LF,

In case you haven't got a reference on file, the colour image (#1) in your post above is the S.S. Mauretania (Cunard Line).

Below is a picture of the dazzle camouflage scheme on the S.S. Olympic (White Star Line). This picture was apparently painted at Halifax in 1918/19 when the Canadian troops were returning home, so this would have been the final variant but looking at several images of Olympic throughout the war it's clear that the designs were evolving all the time. In fact, you can compare this image with your first in post no. 7.

Simon,
An excellent illustration, both of the colours and the evolving patterns.
Regards,
LF

[Spud Trevor]

Great pictures.
The patterns remind me of the Art Deco designs you see on items from the twenties. Was it tried on WW1 planes ?

Spud

[Lancashire Fusilier]

Spud Trevor, on 08 July 2012 - 01:07 PM, said:

Great pictures.
The patterns remind me of the Art Deco designs you see on items from the twenties. Was it tried on WW1 planes ?

Spud

Spud,

Here is some photgraphs of  dazzle patterns used on a WW1 aircraft.
LF

Here is a very interesting colour chart showing the various colours used in WW1 Dazzle Camouflage, as complied by the inventor of Dazzle Camouflage, Norman Wilkinson.
LF

Attached Files

•  Dazzle on aircraft.jpg   27.73K   5 downloads
•  Dazzle Colour chart.jpg   60.13K   6 downloads

[Lancashire Fusilier]

Norman Wilkinson, Artist/Painter - Born Cambridge - 1878, died 1971.
Inventor of Dazzle Camouflage.
LF

Attached Files

•  Norman_Wilkinson_%28artist%29.jpg   39.31K   0 downloads

[RobL]

Lancashire Fusilier, on 08 July 2012 - 12:57 AM, said:

Because many of the WW1 photographs were in black and white, it gives the impression that Dazzle Camouflage was in black and white, whereas in reality, many of the Dazzle Camouflage patterns included colours.
Here is a painting showing the ship's actual coloured Dazzle Camouflage.
LF

More Dazzle Camouflage ships -
LF
2nd photo - HMS Rocksand
3rd photo - RMS Empress of Russia.

I've just looked up HMS Rocksand - a fascinating class of sloop, designed to look double ended! http://en.wikipedia..../24_class_sloop

[Lancashire Fusilier]

RobL, on 08 July 2012 - 06:34 PM, said:

I've just looked up HMS Rocksand - a fascinating class of sloop, designed to look double ended! http://en.wikipedia..../24_class_sloop

Rob,
If you look at the Kil Class Gunboats in post #6, they also appear to have a bow at each end! great optical illusion.
Regards,
LF

[Simon Mills]

Lancashire Fusilier, on 08 July 2012 - 01:21 PM, said:

Here is a very interesting colour chart showing the various colours used in WW1 Dazzle Camouflage, as complied by the inventor of Dazzle Camouflage, Norman Wilkinson.
LF

LF,

That colour chart is very interesting. For years I have wondered if the colours in the post-war White Star Line publicity poster of the Olympic at sea (below) were a bit exaggerated in order to catch the public's eye, but the chart seems to suggest that it is actually quite accurate.

I have a friend in America who is a marine illustrator by trade and I can only say that he is obsessed by detail. I'm pretty sure that the notion of asking him to paint the Olympic in her dazzle painted colour scheme would leave him a quivering wreck after doing all that research and not having come up with a definitive answer!

S.

Attached Files

•  Olympic Dazzle R.jpg   60.48K   2 downloads

[MikB]

Loath though I am to say so, one of the top prizes in this class has to go to the French, for the cruiser 'Gloire'...

http://www.oobject.c...er-gloire/2875/



Regards,
MikB

[RobL]

Interesting camouflage on a  Sopwith Camel!

http://www.iwmprints...ction-of-flight

[egbert]

RobL, on 10 July 2012 - 01:09 AM, said:

Interesting camouflage on a  Sopwith Camel!

http://www.iwmprints...ction-of-flight

And even the wings were painted with unvisible making paint

[Ralph Currell]

Simon Mills, on 09 July 2012 - 08:03 AM, said:

LF,

That colour chart is very interesting. For years I have wondered if the colours in the post-war White Star Line publicity poster of the Olympic at sea (below) were a bit exaggerated in order to catch the public's eye, but the chart seems to suggest that it is actually quite accurate.

I have a friend in America who is a marine illustrator by trade and I can only say that he is obsessed by detail. I'm pretty sure that the notion of asking him to paint the Olympic in her dazzle painted colour scheme would leave him a quivering wreck after doing all that research and not having come up with a definitive answer!

S.

Hi Simon,

I've done a bit of research on Olympic's dazzle schemes, and while I'm not (yet) a quivering wreck, I have come to realize there are a lot of gaps and contradictions in the available references.  That White Star postcard you posted, while quite attractive, does not match the Admiralty dazzle drawings for that pattern.  Another often-seen postcard of Mauretania shows her dazzled with bright red patches, which also seems to be a flight of artistic fancy.

Regards,
   Ralph