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4 chevrons and crown


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#1 GRUMPY

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Posted 17 January 2012 - 10:06 AM

Herewith a photo found on RWF web site. I will spare readers the wilder theories, but what the heck?

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#2 auchonvillerssomme

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Posted 17 January 2012 - 10:32 AM

Could it be a variation of the Staff Corporal, I know wrong way up and in wrong place but.....

#3 Stoppage Drill

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Posted 17 January 2012 - 11:15 AM

Drum Majors wore this rank badge even in my time, maybe still do. Drum Major is, of course an appointment not a rank, and I recall that if he was a sergeant then he would only wear the four reversed chevrons, but if he was a warrant officer he would have the crown above.


Household cavalry staff corporals still wear this badge and other cavalry regiments used to. May still do as far as I know.


What I find unusual in this photo is that Colour Sergeants are wearing leather - Sam Brownes. I thought that apart from commissioned officers only Warrant Officers wore them.

#4 GRUMPY

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Posted 17 January 2012 - 12:05 PM

Thank you but the C-Sgts have FOUR chevrons! All of them.

I do not think this can be regular army.

Looks like India.

Thank you but the C-Sgts have FOUR chevrons! All of them.

I do not think this can be regular army.

Looks like India.

#5 Stoppage Drill

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Posted 17 January 2012 - 12:36 PM

Wikipedia :-

Regimental sergeant-majors, who before the Boer War had worn four chevrons with a crown, were given in 1902 the badge of a single large crown on the lower arm, but adopted a small version of the Royal arms in its place in 1915 when they became warrant officers class I.


Maybe some regiments continued the pre 1902 practice ? Bit of a regimental habit in RWF - after all, they kept wearing the flash.



RSM would wear leather and officer-pattern tunics.



Date of your photo ?

#6 Graham Stewart

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Posted 17 January 2012 - 02:15 PM

Possibly a colonial Volunteer unit - Hong Kong, Shanghai, Singapore, etc(?)

Reasons for this conclusion - chap 2nd from our left standing with 4inverted chevrons & crown above would under old Volunteer/TF Regs be the "acting Sgt Major". Other would possibly be Clr Sgt Instructors(Staff Sgt Instructors).

#7 GRUMPY

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Posted 17 January 2012 - 02:33 PM

[quote name='Stoppage Drill' timestamp='1326803788' post='1696374']
Wikipedia :-

Regimental sergeant-majors, who before the Boer War had worn four chevrons with a crown, were given in 1902 the badge of a single large crown on the lower arm, but adopted a small version of the Royal arms in its place in 1915 when they became warrant officers class I.


Maybe some regiments continued the pre 1902 practice ? Bit of a regimental habit in RWF - after all, they kept wearing the flash.



RSM would wear leather and officer-pattern tunics.



Date of your photo ?

Wikipedia, in this as in many things is wrong. The Sergeant Major [no such thing as RSM before 1915] had worn the single crown from 1882, with a very small number of exceptions. Acting SMs of VF and TF, [regular C-Sgts], did wear the badge as the man secong from left in photo is wearing.

The Forum with the original posting believes it knows the truth, but I don't want to muddy the waters until the experts have had a nibble.

#8 squirrel

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Posted 17 January 2012 - 04:09 PM

Found a couple of references to Trumpet Major in Lifeguards and Trumpet Sergeant Major QOH wearing 4 chvrons with Crown above on upper arm, late 1800's. Both in Stable Jackets and no other insignia except regimental badge on chevrons for QOH TSM.

Cavalry WO's and NCO's Arm Badges Lineker & Dine Military Historical Society Special Publication 1997.

#9 Steven Broomfield

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Posted 17 January 2012 - 04:14 PM

Cavalry WO's and NCO's Arm Badges Lineker & Dine Military Historical Society Special Publication 1997.

An invaluable reference - you were lucky to get a copy :thumbsup:

What are the medals these chaps are wearing? Would that give any clues? Not knowing nothing about all this, I'd say it's an inter-war picture for some reason, and India or somewhere Colonial looks good.

Unless, of course, it's a still from series 3 of Downton ....

#10 GRUMPY

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Posted 17 January 2012 - 05:18 PM

no, its not a wind-up, I assure you.

I will revisit the site tomorrow and say what they have to say ...... I am not convinced ........

#11 Graham Stewart

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Posted 17 January 2012 - 05:56 PM

no, its not a wind-up, I assure you.

I will revisit the site tomorrow and say what they have to say ...... I am not convinced ........


Hi Grumpy - did you read my conclusion? I think we're probably thinking along the same lines, although I'm thinking Colonial Volunteer unit post-1920's/30's.

#12 Scalyback

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Posted 17 January 2012 - 11:49 PM

Yeomanry chap.

One yeomanry TA signal units still have the QMRS still with 4 and star instead of crown. Never count out yeomanry units they tend to do what they please, re dress style.

#13 Stoppage Drill

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Posted 17 January 2012 - 11:59 PM

Yeomanry chap.

One yeomanry TA signal units still have the QMRS still with 4 and star instead of crown. Never count out yeomanry units they tend to do what they please, re dress style.


Yes, Middlesex Yeomanry isn't it ? But the inference was that the photo was of RWF people wasn't it ?

#14 GRUMPY

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Posted 18 January 2012 - 09:29 AM

Said to be of:

Back row: Col Sergt Inst A. Scott, Sergt Major A. Davies, Col Sergt Inst H. Jones, Col Sergt Inst C.H. Memmett;
Front row: Capt and Offg Adjutant C.H.O.Baker, Lt Col R.S. Hawkins V.D, Lt and Quarter Master J.T.Mawhood.

Will come back with said to be unit!

Northern Bengal Mounted Rifles or Assam Volunteer Rifles c. 1903.

I can understand the 4 chevrons and crown for SM [standard UK practice for VF and Militia] but the 4 chevrons for C-Sgts!

The RWF connection is that one man was ex-RWF regular.

#15 Glenn J

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Posted 18 January 2012 - 10:30 AM

Please find below a picture from the 3rd Battalion Coldstream Guards in Cairo at Kasr-el-Nil Barracks in 1909. At this time all SNCOs on the Battalion Staff including Sergeants and the Drums Sergeant were wearing a Sam-Browne belt. In this picture we see the RQMS (4 chevrons surmounted by a star), the ORQMS (4 chevrons) and one of the Drill Sergeants (3 chevrons surmounted by a crown). Of course, at this time all were still "Staff-Sergeants" and not Warrant Officers.

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#16 Graham Stewart

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Posted 18 January 2012 - 10:33 AM

Said to be of:

Back row: Col Sergt Inst A. Scott, Sergt Major A. Davies, Col Sergt Inst H. Jones, Col Sergt Inst C.H. Memmett;
Front row: Capt and Offg Adjutant C.H.O.Baker, Lt Col R.S. Hawkins V.D, Lt and Quarter Master J.T.Mawhood.

Will come back with said to be unit!

Northern Bengal Mounted Rifles or Assam Volunteer Rifles c. 1903.

I can understand the 4 chevrons and crown for SM [standard UK practice for VF and Militia] but the 4 chevrons for C-Sgts!


Was standard practice for Colour Sgt's to wear four and and crown if attached as a 'general instructor' and not as musketry instructors or other specialised trades. Haven't got my T.A.Regs here for the 20's, but suspect all of this would have been changed in the UK during the War.

#17 Graham Stewart

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Posted 18 January 2012 - 11:17 AM

Attached File  IMG VF regs 1897_0004 - Copy (2) (Copy).jpg   75.06KB   0 downloads

Reference to the four chevrons and crown from Vol Regs 1897.

#18 GRUMPY

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Posted 18 January 2012 - 11:21 AM

I am really glad I asked, and extremely grateful for the replies.

Never too old to learn!

#19 GRUMPY

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Posted 18 January 2012 - 11:31 AM

Please find below a picture from the 3rd Battalion Coldstream Guards in Cairo at Kasr-el-Nil Barracks in 1909. At this time all SNCOs on the Battalion Staff including Sergeants and the Drums Sergeant were wearing a Sam-Browne belt. In this picture we see the RQMS (4 chevrons surmounted by a star), the ORQMS (4 chevrons) and one of the Drill Sergeants (3 chevrons surmounted by a crown). Of course, at this time all were still "Staff-Sergeants" and not Warrant Officers.

Regards
Glenn


I wonder what the reason was for the Guards to wear 4 chevrons point down upper arm in Egypt? It cannot be for ease of rolling up sleeves and still showing rank/ appointment because it would neither work, nor be seemly ...... does anyone have a photo c. 1910 of Foot Guards in SD or Home Service tunic with similar positioning please?

#20 Glenn J

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Posted 18 January 2012 - 02:07 PM

RQMS and ORQMS in Home Service Clothing.

Regards
Glenn

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#21 Glenn J

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Posted 18 January 2012 - 02:14 PM

Not a terribly large image, but the four bar and star badge of the RQMS can be discerned in this 1902 photograph.

Regards
Glenn

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#22 GRUMPY

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Posted 18 January 2012 - 02:21 PM

Sumptuous pictures!

Very many thanks for these two images, a treasure.

#23 squirrel

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Posted 18 January 2012 - 03:37 PM

Brief mention here: Dawnay p 49 para 6 "...Staff Sergeants, 1st Class, continued to wear the four-bar chevron point downwards above the elbow until all the Non-Commisioned Officers of the rank of Quartermaster Sergeant were promoted to Warrant Rank...."

#24 GRUMPY

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Posted 18 January 2012 - 03:50 PM

Brief mention here: Dawnay p 49 para 6 "...Staff Sergeants, 1st Class, continued to wear the four-bar chevron point downwards above the elbow until all the Non-Commisioned Officers of the rank of Quartermaster Sergeant were promoted to Warrant Rank...."


I assume that is Foot Guards, without looking it up?

#25 squirrel

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Posted 18 January 2012 - 04:16 PM

Foot Guards it is.