33 replies to this topic

[FROGSMILE]

GRUMPY, on 17 January 2012 - 12:05 PM, said:

Thank you but the C-Sgts have FOUR chevrons! All of them.

I do not think this can be regular army.

Looks like India.

Thank you but the C-Sgts have FOUR chevrons! All of them.

I do not think this can be regular army.

Looks like India.

A very, very interesting photo Grumpy.  I imagine that it was a TF battalion that went out to an overseas station to relieve Regulars over the period 1914-15 and thus had not yet adopted the change in badges of rank brought about under the 1915 reorganisation.  It would have taken some months for changes to reach overseas and a few more perhaps for 'new' badges of rank to arrive (although unit tailors could have made chevrons it was not usual at that time for the 'cut and stitch' silhouette of a crown to be acceptable as a badge of rank).

[GRUMPY]

FROGSMILE, on 19 January 2012 - 11:38 AM, said:

A very, very interesting photo Grumpy.  I imagine that it was a TF battalion that went out to an overseas station to relieve Regulars over the period 1914-15 and thus had not yet adopted the change in badges of rank brought about under the 1915 reorganisation.  It would have taken some months for changes to reach overseas and a few more perhaps for 'new' badges of rank to arrive (although unit tailors could have made chevrons it was not usual at that time for the 'cut and stitch' silhouette of a crown to be acceptable as a badge of rank).

This raises a question I had not dreamed of before: did a TF battalion retain its attached regulars when it went on active service .... yes to the couple of officers CO and Adjt but ARSM, sergeant instructors ..... I rather doubt the latter, more needed back at ranch I think.

[FROGSMILE]

GRUMPY, on 19 January 2012 - 02:49 PM, said:

This raises a question I had not dreamed of before: did a TF battalion retain its attached regulars when it went on active service .... yes to the couple of officers CO and Adjt but ARSM, sergeant instructors ..... I rather doubt the latter, more needed back at ranch I think.

Yes, you will need to check.  My instincts tell me that the Col Sgts would have remained with their TF battalion.  In modern times SNCOs go to the TA as part of their Regular career and then return to their normal battalions.  At that time I believe that Col Sgts only went at the end of their service and thus never returned but simply retired.  Ergo if they were still fit and within the requirements for active service I believe they would have gone with their TF battalion.  Even when over age, in the initial excitement many of both officers and SNCOs managed to somehow get themselves deployed with their battalions.

[Graham Stewart]

GRUMPY, on 19 January 2012 - 02:49 PM, said:

This raises a question I had not dreamed of before: did a TF battalion retain its attached regulars when it went on active service .... yes to the couple of officers CO and Adjt but ARSM, sergeant instructors ..... I rather doubt the latter, more needed back at ranch I think.

Yes they certainly did, as far as the a/SM was concerned, as I know from the early War Diaries of the NF(TF) battalions, which list the officers and senior ranks, somtimes by Company. The problem arises in the fact that as they keep their regular regimental numbers(4 figure) they are difficult to spot unless you have alternative source such as Regimental journals showing the postings from Regulars to TF.

[GRUMPY]

Graham Stewart, on 20 January 2012 - 07:14 AM, said:

Yes they certainly did, as far as the a/SM was concerned, as I know from the early War Diaries of the NF(TF) battalions, which list the officers and senior ranks, somtimes by Company. The problem arises in the fact that as they keep their regular regimental numbers(4 figure) they are difficult to spot unless you have alternative source such as Regimental journals showing the postings from Regulars to TF.

Mobilization Regs 1914 describe the process in some detail for TF but do not specify the fate of attached regulars. The pragmatic solution on the spot would have been easy: leave the instructors at Home.

I do not have war estabs TF 1914 ..... perhaps Ron has them, and I will draw his attention to this thread.

[Ron Clifton]

GRUMPY, on 20 January 2012 - 09:28 AM, said:

I do not have war estabs TF 1914 ..... perhaps Ron has them, and I will draw his attention to this thread.

I'm afraid I don't, and the notes I have were taken from WE for TF 1911, which is the latest pre-war version I have seen. I'm not sure whether at that time it was envisaged that virtually the whole of the pre-war TF infantry would find itself on foreign service.

Graham's pragmatic solution looks plausible, especially as Regular battalions left their peacetime C/Sgt Instructors in Musketry behind, and of course someone would have to stay behind to train up the second and third line battalions, and presumably TF units embarking for active service were regarded as sufficiently fully traioned not to need the services of their peacetime instructors.

A set of War Estabs for TF units with the BEF was issued in Oct 1914 and there is a copy at Kew in file WO24/900. It's probably not worth making a special visit but anyone planning to visit Kew shortly might like to add it to their to-do list - the "file" is in fact a small hardback book and finding the info should only take five minutes or so.

Ron

[GRUMPY]

Thank you Ron.

[Graham Stewart]

One that springs to mind was 3079 a/SM Walter John Casey, former Drum Major of the 2nd Bn, who as a Clr/Sgt was posted to the 7th Bn, NF. He was promoted a/SM just before the outbreak of the War and went with the battalion overseas in April 1915. Luckily this gentleman is also recorded as such in the Battalion History.

On top of which he's the subject of those pre-war coloured regimental postcards, as Drum Major, NF.

[FROGSMILE]

I agree with Graham and have read of many cases where the Col Sgt instructors deployed with their units, as in the initial excitement of war it was felt that all fighting  would be over by Christmas and nobody wanted to miss out on the kudos and medals (naive as that may seem, it is true).  At that early stage I don't think that there was any inkling (or concept) that there would be a requirement for second and third line Territorial units.