241 replies to this topic

[seaforths]

Hazel if you look for the book then make sure you get the latest edition. They have published 5 editions as they find out more information they revise it. The first edition is 1998 the edition I have is 2009 - they might have even published another edition since but good luck and enjoy! Tell me what your conclusion is I would be interested to know.

You may already know this and I apologise if you do. But I note your Seaforth & Gordon interests. There is a book 'Sword of the North' - seems very sought after judging by the prices it is commanding on the second hand book market. However it is available now to view on line almost 700 pages. It has masses of information and photographs on the regiments you are interested in and more besides. I was looking through it last night and will return to it again as there are personal accounts of burials and funerals in the field etc. If you haven't got it or seen it and can't find the link drop me a message.
Marjorie

[roel22]

Marjorie, why not publish the link in this thread (so others can read the book as well)?

Roel

[seaforths]

Hi Roel,

If you use the well known search engine with the double vowel and type Sword of the North it is the first one that comes up (Am Baile website)

If it makes it easier or it doesn't show then this should take you there:

http://www.ambaile.o...f the Great War

So enjoy

Marjorie

[ScottM]

_{cross posting from another section on individual soldiers, very relevant to this discussion here: http://digital.slv.v...ue&usePid2=true}

[hazel clark]

Link doesn't seem to work!  Will try to look for the other thread.
Hazel C

[ScottM]

Well, sorry about that , here is the thread link
http://1914-1918.inv...howtopic=182782

[hazel clark]

ScottM, on 25 July 2012 - 06:14 AM, said:

Well, sorry about that , here is the thread link
http://1914-1918.inv...howtopic=182782

Thanks Scott!  This is very interesting.
H.C.

[PBI in the HAC]

seaforths, on 24 June 2012 - 12:44 PM, said:

Thank you to the Belgian gentlemen posting – for your honesty. I am sorry that you seemed to be sniped at for this. You could so easily have kept quiet or even said no – that didn’t happen. But you didn’t – you spoke up and as I see it told the truth. And in trying all these years later to understand – we must look at the bigger picture of what occurred and acknowledge that too.

Thanks Marjorie

Gerd

[TheUnknownWarrior]

My Grandpa was in charge of Flanders Exhumation work. He was a man of the utmost integrity- Padre George Kendall OBE.

[GRUMPY]

I think that is an epitaph few could aspire to, so God Bless him and RIP.

[Jim Smithson]

TheUnknownWarrior, on 07 November 2012 - 06:41 AM, said:

My Grandpa was in charge of Flanders Exhumation work. He was a man of the utmost integrity- Padre George Kendall OBE.

Thank you.  It must have been a little painful to read through some parts of this thread.  It must have been a very painful assignment for him.

Jim

[martin14]

A most interesting thread, thank you to all the contributors.

Chris_Baker, on 30 January 2012 - 11:07 AM, said:

Must admin, I am finding this topic rather barren.

Does anyone believe that there are no human remains buried in the CWGC cemeteries?

Does anyone believe that every single grave marker carries the correct details of the man it represents, and that it is precisely positioned above his remains?

Every grave ?

No, but I was pretty sure there would have been some clear method of detailing the grave markers,
or else the headstone would have been listed as 'Unknown ".

Certainly the cemteries around the hospitals, farther away from the front, should have had fairly decent records.

' Known to be ' memorial stone are that.. they have documentation, maybe even a witness to the original burial, but no body
' Believed to be '.. documentation, but no body.
A name.. should have had clear means of identifying the remains put in front of the stone.

In the article around St Julien and the trees, one of the locals suggested moving the headstones, as if he wasnt thinking about what was underneath them.

I live in Brussels for now, and the amount that people here don't know about WWI is really shocking,
they dont study it all, despite lots of it happening all around them.. and for them..

[PBI in the HAC]

martin14, on 26 November 2012 - 05:56 PM, said:

I live in Brussels for now, and the amount that people here don't know about WWI is really shocking,
they dont study it all, despite lots of it happening all around them.. and for them..

In reaction to all who keep mentioning the "ignorance of the Belgians". I'm since a couple of months working with an intern from Reading University in my lab in Antwerp, Belgium and I can confirm he knows (to my surprise) as much or as little of the Great War as the average Belgian. They did study it at school but he was more interested in WWII, so already forgot a lot of the predecessor. And there is the key word: 'Interest'. We must come to terms with it: Most people don't give a .... about history and/or WWI. This said I must admit that over here even less are interested and this can be explained by the lack of nationalism and pride we Belgians suffer from, especially the Dutch speaking part.
For those interested: in Belgium it's difficult to study WW1 without opening that can of worms called "Collaboration and Activism". This is also the reason why I am studying Ypers Salient instead of the Yser front. Do not judge without knowledge.

Gerd

[TheUnknownWarrior]

GRUMPY, on 07 November 2012 - 12:48 PM, said:

I think that is an epitaph few could aspire to, so God Bless him and RIP.

He left a book Im hoping is published. Thankyou for your good wishes.

[TheUnknownWarrior]

Jim Smithson, on 07 November 2012 - 08:34 PM, said:

Thank you.  It must have been a little painful to read through some parts of this thread.  It must have been a very painful assignment for him.

Jim

Thanks Jim. The truth stands alone. It was but he sincerely believed it was the flesh that was being buried, not the spirit and that gave him strength.

[egbert]

For the interested, here is a contemporary French text about fraud in conjunction with reburial fraud. If somebody is interested you can translate with a altavista or similar web-translator:


Rapport résumé daté du 13 mai 1926 relatif à la découverte d’ossements dans le cimetière militaire désaffecté de Xxxxx dans la Marne.



Ce cimetière à été crée pendant la guerre, et les corps qu’il contenait ont été regroupés en mars 1922 dans le cimetière du Xxxxxx de Xxxxxx par l’entreprise Xxxxxx.

Le terrain à été rendu à son propriétaire, mais au cours de fondations effectués pour la construction d’une maison il a été découvert des ossements.

Ils sont soigneusement recueillis dans des sacs de toiles neufs sur lesquels sont porté les noms des militaires et déposés dans un local attenant au cimetière communal.



Il ressort de ce document que la responsabilité de l’entreprise des travaux de regroupement semble sérieusement engagée.

La presse va s’emparer de ce scandale, voici quelques extraits paru dans un journal local :



« On a beaucoup parlé des scandales des exhumations. La délicate opération des transferts des corps, difficile à organiser, ne pouvait sans doute s’effectuer sans quelques incidents : mais on a  vu trop souvent de véritables monstruosités. Les individus qui se sont chargés de cette mission sacrée (il fallait pourtant qu’il y en ait) se sont comportés trop souvent en ignobles mercantis. Ils ont sabotés cette besogne macabre ; ils ont trafiqué avec les glorieuses dépouilles de nos frères d’armes  comme avec une vulgaire marchandise !

C’est en présence d’un scandale de cette nature que nous nous trouvons, à Xxxxx, où l’on fouille à nouveau tout l’emplacement de l’ancien cimetière.

Que trouve-t-on dans ce cimetière qui comprenait 303 tombes françaises et 432 tombes allemandes?

Tout d’abord la presque totalité des cercueils qui eussent dû être brûlés ont été laissées en terre ; puis on y retrouve dans l’un, quelques ossements dispersés, dans l’autre un crâne, dans celui-ci une plaque d’identité, dans celui-là un corps entier.

Quarante-trois contenaient des ossements ou des débris d’équipements ; deux corps étaient complets, un troisième était sans tête : deux tombes renfermaient une plaque d’identité alors que les cadavres étaient signalés comme inconnus !

Les fouilles se poursuivent ; elles mettent à nu d’autres cercueils contenant d’autres ossements et sans doute trouvera-t-on d’autres corps entier. Il n’y a aucune raison pour que qu’il en soit autrement pour les tombes des morts allemands.

   Quels sont les responsables de cet ignoble sabotage ? Ils sont plusieurs. On peut déjà  reprocher au délégué des familles qui devaient assister aux exhumations de n’avoir suivi les travaux que d’un œil indifférent. L’officier d’état civil qui aurait du exercer une surveillance attentive à manqué gravement à son devoir. Il doit être recherché et poursuivi. Il paraîtrait d’ailleurs, qu’il n’est plus attaché au Ministère des Pensions et qu’il réside actuellement dans un département d’outre-Méditerranée.



  Enfin, si l’on cherche quel est l’entrepreneur chargé des exhumations dans ce secteur, on retrouve de même marchand de cadavres qui traduit en correctionnelle H. Xxxxx et J. Xxxxx (deux députés), coupables, selon lui, de l’avoir traité avec une sévérité qui semble pourtant justifier le découverte de Xxxxx. Décidément, les marchands de la mort ont toute honte bue !

   Tout de même on ne peut tolérer de tels agissements. Il est horrible de penser que des individus ont osé saccager un cimetière et disperser les cadavres de nos malheureux camarades pour faire encaisser à un entrepreneur sans scrupules 87 fr. 50 par croix de bois enlevée.

[eairicbloodaxe]

Very interesting thread.

Personally, I find it just as poignant and emotional reading a name from a memorial like Thiepval (where the body was never found), as standing in front of a CWGC headstone. That's also the case where there's a duplicate memorial - for example in my local churchyard where the soldier really lies in a named CWGC cemetery abroad.

For me, the fact the the body is or isn't there is overtaken by the feeling that people cared enough to reflect the soldier's sacrifice with a permanent commemoration, so we may think of them today as we stand silent.

Regards



Ian