9 replies to this topic

[McCudden]

I attach three linked photographs which I find fascinating and hope you can add some information. Here’s how I got them:

Some months ago I bought a second hand copy of Lyn MacDonald’s book ‘1914: Days of Hope.’ On the front cover was a picture of a number of smiling soldiers on a transport ship. I assumed (given the title of the book) that the picture was taken early in the war.  

I was intrigued by the picture and wanted a full copy of my own. I asked Penguin where they got it from and they cited Imperial War Museum as the source so I contacted the IWM photographic archive who had no record of a licence application from Penguin and despite a search by them, the picture could not be located.

Finally, I went to the IWM archives and located the picture myself (within ten minutes!). In doing so, I also found two related pictures taken just moments after the first and I attach them all for your scrutiny. I now conclude that the picture was taken later than April 1916 (tin helmets visible) and I think consists of mainly RAMC with a few Royal Engineers present. The IWM negative numbers are Q3330, 33301 and 33302.

I noticed too that the RAMC chaps have a dark shaded fabric diamond badge on their shoulders. The RE’s have a rectangle fabric badge but some have no cap badge (why would that be?) and others have a paler shaded triangular badge. I think this last group are 29th Division. They look more war weary and their uniforms are shabbier than the others.

My guess is that these pictures are of a ship taking new drafts and returning leave soldiers back to France.

I would be very grateful for any observations about these pictures. In particular, where the ship was docked, which units are present and when the pictures were taken. I would also be interested in learning what the fabric badges mean and if they can be used to pin-pint the Division or even the battalions. A long shot I know…

Thanks

Alec

Attached Files

•  Disembarkation 10001a.jpg   79.51K   0 downloads

[FROGSMILE]

McCudden, on 28 January 2012 - 12:35 PM, said:

I attach three linked photographs which I find fascinating and hope you can add some information. Here's how I got them:

Some months ago I bought a second hand copy of Lyn MacDonald's book '1914: Days of Hope.' On the front cover was a picture of a number of smiling soldiers on a transport ship. I assumed (given the title of the book) that the picture was taken early in the war.  

I was intrigued by the picture and wanted a full copy of my own. I asked Penguin where they got it from and they cited Imperial War Museum as the source so I contacted the IWM photographic archive who had no record of a licence application from Penguin and despite a search by them, the picture could not be located.

Finally, I went to the IWM archives and located the picture myself (within ten minutes!). In doing so, I also found two related pictures taken just moments after the first and I attach them all for your scrutiny. I now conclude that the picture was taken later than April 1916 (tin helmets visible) and I think consists of mainly RAMC with a few Royal Engineers present. The IWM negative numbers are Q3330, 33301 and 33302.

I noticed too that the RAMC chaps have a dark shaded fabric diamond badge on their shoulders. The RE's have a rectangle fabric badge but some have no cap badge (why would that be?) and others have a paler shaded triangular badge. I think this last group are 29th Division. They look more war weary and their uniforms are shabbier than the others.

My guess is that these pictures are of a ship taking new drafts and returning leave soldiers back to France.

I would be very grateful for any observations about these pictures. In particular, where the ship was docked, which units are present and when the pictures were taken. I would also be interested in learning what the fabric badges mean and if they can be used to pin-pint the Division or even the battalions. A long shot I know…

Thanks

Alec

Booth & Company, seen on the warehouse in the background, were a large Anglo/American Leather Goods import/export company with the British end sited at Liverpool, so I believe the photo was taken at Liverpool Docks.  I agree with you that the photo dates from 1916.  The men are in Winter Marching Order (i.e. Greatcoats and large packs) and, as well as folded waterproof capes on top of the packs, many of them are wearing oilskin covers on their SD caps.

I am sorry but the cloth badges are an aspect outside of my knowledge and thus I cannot comment about them.

[MartinBennitt]

strange that Penguin should use an anachronistic photo for the front cover of this book, not once but at least twice. My paperback edition, which I think was the first one to follow the hardback, has a still from "The Battle of the Somme", if I'm not mistaken, with men going over the top wearing steel helmets.

cheers Martin B

[battiscombe]

methinks that Liverpool docks (if it is) would be more likely to have men going back and forth to Ireland - the Kent ports provided the fastest and usual route to France .. but that Booth & Co might have other dock facilities is possible...

[FROGSMILE]

battiscombe, on 29 January 2012 - 09:12 PM, said:

methinks that Liverpool docks (if it is) would be more likely to have men going back and forth to Ireland - the Kent ports provided the fastest and usual route to France .. but that Booth & Co might have other dock facilities is possible...

Yes, you could well be right.  Booth also bought their own small shipping line to transport animal skins to and from from South America and ran it until 1947 before it was taken over by a larger shipping company.

[Joe Sweeney]

Great phot with lots of detail.

Yes I agree photo taken no earlier than Sept 1915 (Probably late winter 15/16 or ealy spring which fits in with your supposition). No later than May 1916 my guess.

Probably not associated with Ireland unless it was normal to issue Gas Helmets to soldiers coming and going.


Most men have at least one gas helmet and many have 2.

The RAMC personnel are for the most part wearing P14 Infantry equipment adopted for non combatant use--(no ammo or weapon).

At least one wearing P08 web equipment--Infantry as cap badge doesn't look like RE. Another with P03.

Many varieties of dismounted Great coats.

Most are wearing Winter Service Dress Cap Waterproof covers.

Mk II ration bags are everywhere and so are some enameled cups.

Maybe a new unit (RAMC) New Army deploying to France with a few odds and ends like the Infantryman returning from leave like your initial impression.


Joe Sweeney

[McCudden]

Thanks for all you knowledgable replies. Good to know I wasn't too far off the mark though I never would have guessed it was taken at Liverpool!

Alec

[FROGSMILE]

McCudden, on 31 January 2012 - 03:10 PM, said:

Thanks for all you knowledgable replies. Good to know I wasn't too far off the mark though I never would have guessed it was taken at Liverpool!

Alec

There is no guarantee it was at Liverpool Alec, but I have not been able to trace any other port at which Booth & Company had facilities.  Most of their trade in skins was with the American Continent.  It's a long shot, but I suppose it is possible that they are soldiers who were recruited in Ireland arriving in Britain after training and in readiness to deploy onward to France, but that is pure speculation and nothing more.

[McCudden]

Thanks for clarifying the Liverpool connection. I'm a bit sceptical about these being troops from Ireland simply becasuse they had an official or press photographer on board. Why send a photographer there when there's plenty to capture on the Channel?

I thought that Booth and Co were a shipping line at the time. Can anyone confirm this please?

Alec

[FROGSMILE]

McCudden, on 02 February 2012 - 01:15 PM, said:

Thanks for clarifying the Liverpool connection. I'm a bit sceptical about these being troops from Ireland simply becasuse they had an official or press photographer on board. Why send a photographer there when there's plenty to capture on the Channel?

I thought that Booth and Co were a shipping line at the time. Can anyone confirm this please?

Alec

Could he have been a Press Photographer from Liverpool?  Presumably they were not all from London.

Here are two sources of info re Booth & Co:

1.  http://en.wikipedia....oth_and_Company

2.  http://www.boothandco.com/history.html