32 replies to this topic

[GRUMPY]

On the Victorian Military Forum I was startled to read of a Cameronians/ Scottish Rifles DRUM MAJOR. Rifles. Bugles. Bugle Major ........ Pipes. Pipe Major.
OK so far but a DRUM MAJOR?

But the more I thought about it, the more possible it seemed.

Given that the Cams had a military band, somebody had to strut in front, give the staff signals etc.

So, why not?

I will revisit the site and copy the thread hyperlink and edit it into here, for learned comment.

http://www.victorian...php?f=19&t=6587

[GRUMPY]

Bumping this up: I need to know!

[HERITAGE PLUS]

Grumpy

The following is from 'The Drum' by Hugh-Barty King, written as a A Royal Tournament Tribute to the Military Drum and published in 1988.

'Drum-Majors were robbed of their over fancy uniforms and made to wear those of Staff-Sergeants which was not entirely lacking colour however.  A drawing of the Drum-Major of the 26th or Cameronian Regiment of 1852 showed him wearing a uniform such as this with the 'Mullet' or five-pointed star of the Earl of Angus on his drum belt which was the Regimental Badge. On his head was a bearskin cap with a long scarlet hackle coiling right over it'.

Dave

[GRUMPY]

Thank you but [and here I am on dangerous ground] I think the "Scottish Rifles" aspect was an 1881 construct, following the shotgun amalgamation of the 26th, a Lowland Scots regiment, and the 90th Perthshire LI, and the latter I think brought the bugles aspect to the feast.  Rifles/Scottish experts please?

[HERITAGE PLUS]

Good point - I think you are right on the 1881 link.

[skipman]

This probably doesn't answer the question, and you probably have this, but will be of interest to others etc etc

The Drummer's Handbook

Mike

[GRUMPY]

Yes I have it, and can thoroughly recommend it!

[Lachlan]

Hi Grumpy

The Scottish Rifles (Cameronians) was an 1881 amalgamation of the 26^th (Cameronian) Regt of Foot and the 90^th Perthshire Light Infantry. Both were Lowland regiments, the 26^th having been raised by the Douglas family (Earl of Angus) in 1689 to fight for King William III against the Jacobites of the deposed James VII/II. The 90^th Perthshire Light Infantry was raised in 1794 by Thomas Graham of Balgowan in the city of Perth (in the Lowland part of Perthshire) in response to his outrage at French revolutionaries who had vandalised his wife's body (who had died naturally on a trip to France and was being transported in a coffin back to the UK).

In 1881, in addition to its Cavalry regiment, a Guards regiment and a Fusilier regiment, Scotland was given a new Rifles regiment to complete the set by way of converting the new 26/90th amalgamation to Rifles. Ireland was also given a Rifles regiment at the same time.

The old 26^th for many years had pipers and the regiment wore dicing on their undress Kilmarnock caps. Indeed in 1854, when the British authorities sanctioned a quota of official pipers for Highland regiments, the 26^th (a Lowland regiment) was permitted pipers, whilst the 91^st (Argyllshire) Regt of Foot, a de-kilted Highland regiment, were frustrated to be ordered to get rid of their pipers ! They ignored the order but regimental funds had to pay for the upkeep of the pipers.

The battalions of the Scottish Rifles from 1881 onwards, had a pipe band with a Drum-Major. The pipers initially wore trews of Government sett (Black Watch) but later adopted kilts of Douglas tartan. The pipers of the 2^nd Batt wore the badge of the arms of the city of Perth on their cross-belts.

In the Victorian Forum you mention, there is a photo of the drum major of the Scottish Rifles with their corps of bugles, though I believe that rank was called Bugle Major in the Scotish Rifles. Some of the buglers doubled up as drummers for the pipe-band (a convention in Scottish regimental pipe bands), whilst others were in the regimental military band.

it's also interesting to remember that the pipe bands of the Ghurka Rifles regiments (past and present) have drum-majors (BM's).



BM of the Cameronians c 1960's.




Group of 1st Batt Cameronians c 1968, prior to disbandment.




Military Band of the 1st Batt Cameronians

[Lachlan]

Pipes and Drums and Military band of the 1st Batt Cameronians, Hanover St, Edinburgh 1960's.

[GRUMPY]

Lachlan, on 07 February 2012 - 04:34 AM, said:

Hi Grumpy

The Scottish Rifles (Cameronians) was an 1881 amalgamation of the 26^th (Cameronian) Regt of Foot and the 90^th Perthshire Light Infantry. Both were Lowland regiments, the 26^th having been raised by the Douglas family (Earl of Angus) in 1689 to fight for King William III against the Jacobites of the deposed James VII/II. The 90^th Perthshire Light Infantry was raised in 1794 by Thomas Graham of Balgowan in the city of Perth (in the Lowland part of Perthshire) in response to his outrage at French revolutionaries who had vandalised his wife's body (who had died naturally on a trip to France and was being transported in a coffin back to the UK).

In 1881, in addition to its Cavalry regiment, a Guards regiment and a Fusilier regiment, Scotland was given a new Rifles regiment to complete the set by way of converting the new 26/90th amalgamation to Rifles. Ireland was also given a Rifles regiment at the same time.

The old 26^th for many years had pipers and the regiment wore dicing on their undress Kilmarnock caps. Indeed in 1854, when the British authorities sanctioned a quota of official pipers for Highland regiments, the 26^th (a Lowland regiment) was permitted pipers, whilst the 91^st (Argyllshire) Regt of Foot, a de-kilted Highland regiment, were frustrated to be ordered to get rid of their pipers ! They ignored the order but regimental funds had to pay for the upkeep of the pipers.

The battalions of the Scottish Rifles from 1881 onwards, had a pipe band with a Drum-Major. The pipers initially wore trews of Government sett (Black Watch) but later adopted kilts of Douglas tartan. The pipers of the 2^nd Batt wore the badge of the arms of the city of Perth on their cross-belts.

In the Victorian Forum you mention, there is a photo of the drum major of the Scottish Rifles with their corps of bugles, though I believe that rank was called Bugle Major in the Scotish Rifles. Some of the buglers doubled up as drummers for the pipe-band (a convention in Scottish regimental pipe bands), whilst others were in the regimental military band.

it's also interesting to remember that the pipe bands of the Ghurka Rifles regiments (past and present) have drum-majors (BM's).



BM of the Cameronians c 1960's.




Group of 1st Batt Cameronians c 1968, prior to disbandment.




Military Band of the 1st Batt Cameronians

Thank you for all that and the photos.

This Sassenach wants to be quite clear here:

So both post-1881 battalions of the Cameronians/ Scottish Rifles had three relevant posts, PM, BM and DM?
Or a BM who doubled as DM for the military band and the Pipes and Drums? And, if the latter, what arrangement were made when the Bugles paraded separately from the Band and/ or the Drums?
And was the DM [if any] of the Band, and the Pipes and Drums, badged as a DM or a BM?

[barrieduncan]

I'm by no means an expert, Grumpy, just one of the local-authority bods that works at the museum and who doesn't really know what he's talking about. To the best of my limited knowledge, post 1881, both regular battalions of The Cameronians (Scottish Rifles) had a Pipe Major, a Bugle Major, and a Band Master. I have seen no reference to, or images of, a Drum Major in the Regiment post 1881. If I come across anything to the contrary I shall let you know.

[GRUMPY]

barrieduncan, on 07 February 2012 - 12:24 PM, said:

I'm by no means an expert, Grumpy, just one of the local-authority bods that works at the museum and who doesn't really know what he's talking about. To the best of my limited knowledge, post 1881, both regular battalions of The Cameronians (Scottish Rifles) had a Pipe Major, a Bugle Major, and a Band Master. I have seen no reference to, or images of, a Drum Major in the Regiment post 1881. If I come across anything to the contrary I shall let you know.

many thanks!

[Lachlan]

GRUMPY, on 07 February 2012 - 02:03 PM, said:

many thanks!

I would agree with Barrie.

As far as I am aware, the Bugle-Major of the Scottish Rifles (Cameronians) was a senior NCO (in later times known as WO II) who trained the battalion buglers and trained the pipe band's drummers and scored their band music. The pipers were trained / scored by the Pipe Major. The Bugle-Major, equivalent of the Drum-Major in Scottish infantry regiments, fronted the Pipes & Drums.

I believe the Bandmaster was an officer who acted as conductor/arranger of the battalion's military band. He would most often be of Major or Captain rank.

I have to confess ignorance/forgetfulness of who led the military band on the march (when without the Pipes & Drums) and held the mace. I'm sure the military band would be accompanied by the Bandmaster, but who led the band I do not know. I'm trying to conjure up memories of the Edinburgh Tattoo on TV !

Thinking of another regiment, I can only recall the 1^st Batt Argyll & Sutherland Highlanders in the 1960's having one Drum-Major – WO II Jimmy Malloch, with Pipe-Major Kenny Robson. I can't recall another Drum-Major leading the military band, so I suspect the Bandmaster fulfilled the duty of leading the military band.

A query I have is – did the Bandmaster or Drum-Major/Bugler-Major train the military band's drummers ?

[GRUMPY]

o quote someone or other:

its a MIS ter-y!

I think only SOs for the period will shed more light on the matter.

[barrieduncan]

Earliest Standing Orders I have to hand are from 1930, so admittedly slightly outside the scope of our discussion. They include the Bandmaster among the Warrant Officers and NCOs, placing him immediately below Regimental Serjeant Major and above the RQMS. It also states that the Bandmaster is referred to as Mr X and addressed as ‘Sir’ by NCOs and men. I always understood the Bandmaster to be a Warrant Officer, later WO1. The SOs also state that when both Pipe and Bugle Bands are on parade the Bugle Major commands the combined bands irrespective of his seniority over the Pipe Major.

[Lachlan]

Just a tiny point and I might be wrong but I believe "Cams" was a nickname for the Queen's Own Cameron Highlanders rather than the Cameronians (Scottish Rifles).

[GRUMPY]

whoops, thanks, a minefield to a Sassenach.

[barrieduncan]

Just noticed your earlier post Grumpy asking about the badges worn. I'm pretty sure I've seen early photographs (well, from 1890s onwards) that show Bandmaster, Pipe Major, and Bugle Major badges being worn. Still yet to see the elusive Drum Major insignia, but I won't hgold my breath for it! As for the nicknames, we tend not to refer to the Regiment as the Cams, but whether that's the nickname for the QOCH I can't say. When referring to the Regiment we always give them their full title of The Cameronians (Scottish Rifles) in the first instance, and thereafter as The Cameronians.

[Lachlan]

My understanding of "The Cams" is from my father who came across the QOCH on several occasions in WW2 (Burma/India*) and referred to them that way when recounting to me (the same way that he talked about the Gurkhas as "The Boys"). "The Cams" could be an abbreviation type nickname used to a degree in WW2.

Barrie - it's interesting that you're a Cameronians man - I live in Muscat, Oman and its ruler Sultan Qaboos, served in 1 Cameronians in 1963 or 64 in Germany, after he came out of Sandhurst. The main reason I believe he served as a Subaltern in the Cameronians was because around 1957/58 Britain helped his father hold his throne against armed rivals. Most instrumental in this was 1 Cameronians, who were sent to support him. The old Sultan was mightily impressed by the Jocks (as was his son, the present Sultan), so much so that his armed forces and police force have since had a Scottish flavour (including pipe bands) and there is a Sultan Qaboos tartan. If you are able to get any images of the young Sultan Qaboos during his service with 1 Cameronians, I would be very interested to see them ! BTW the first time I saw The Cameronians close up was in June 1966, when as a schoolboy, I was one of 4 lads who won a newspaper competition to spend a weekend at Glencorse Barracks, Penicuik. On the parade ground, the Cameronians were going through their paces at regimental marching speed. I was very impressed by that and having rifles at the trail (I didn't know that's what it was called at the time !). I even got the chance to see them marching with their pipe band playing "The Black Bear" and the men cheering at the right time ! There was a whole variety of units represented at Glencorse when I was there :- the Royal Scots, KOSB's, Cameronians, Gurkhas and even cadets from the Green Howards. My Dad was amazed that the very soldier who picked me up from my house in Musselburgh was none other than Bill Speakman VC (KOSB). My time that weekend was mainly spent with the Royal Scots, including a trip in an army truck to the kirk on the Sunday.

* I have a couple of interesting stories from my Dad about the Camerons in the Burma / India theatre, including one  involving American GI's. I'm sure you can guess the gist of that one !

[barrieduncan]

You're spot on, Lachlan, regarding Sultan Qaboos serving as a subaltern in the 1st Battalion The Cameronians. I'd need to check the exact dates he served with them but 1963-64 certainly sounds right - I'm sure I've heard stories of him with the Battalion in Minden. Unfortunately we've never been able to find an image of him in The Cameronians uniform. We featured him in an exhibition a few years ago and were hoping a photograph of him would turn up, but sadly not!

The first president of Pakistan, Iskander Mirza, was attached to the 2nd Battalion in the 1920s. Two British Prime Ministers (Bonar Law and Campbell-Bannerman) had also served with the 1st Lanarkshire Rifle Volunteers (later 5th TF Battalion). The Regiment had its fair share of Premiers, not to mention Generals!

I enjoyed your story about your stay with the Lowland Brigade. I really wish I had some first-hand memories of the Regiment but alas they were disbanded a bit before my time. I can say with pride, however, that I did get to wear the uniform (well some of it) as an Army Cadet in the mid 90s. We still wore the cap badge of The Cameronians and had a square of Douglas Tartan on our Tams and a diamond on our brassards. Sadly though we were never drilled as Rifles! I had a similar experience to yours when I went on a 'Look at Life' course with the Scots Guards when I was about 15. It was great fun; a week in London staying in the Barracks, getting a behind-the-scenes look at all the Parades, and some really fun training exercises. It knocked the socks off anything we ever did with the Cadets! I don't ever recall getting picked up by a VC holder, however, so you beat me on that one!

[Lachlan]

Sorry everyone if I'm putting this thread a wee bit off-course ! Please humour me just now !

I'll never forget that weekend at Glencorse in June 1966 ! I had just turned 13 and it was my first time away from home. But though I felt a bit nervous, the Royal Scots guys we were attached to were great and took me under their wing for the whole weekend. We even got to see inside the armoury and I handled the FN-SLR (the wooden stock version) and various hardware. I will always have the image of the Adjutant burned on my mind. To my little Scottish ears, he sounded posh-English. He wore patrol blues with trews and Glengarry and we were in a lecture room whilst he gave us Royal Scots history. He noticed I wore an SNP button-badge on my blazer and took me up on it, asking if I could play the bagpipes. In his learned opinion, if I couldn't play the pipes, I couldn't be a Scot Nat. But never mind, later, as we were shown our beds in the dorm (? I forgot the army word for it), he lectured us on making a bed and various other things. Meanwhile, Corporal McKillop was standing behind him, mimicking his gestures and making faces at the Adjutant's expense. We daren't laugh in case the Corp got into trouble ! I also got introduced to some Gurkhas in the mess-hall, all very friendly and smiling. They shook my hand when I told them my Dad had been with the Gurkhas in WW2. The grub was a lot better than school-dinners ! A lovely weekend !

The GI story I hinted at was a story my Dad told me when he was with SOE Force 136, operating in Burma and otherwise stationed at their communications base in Calcutta area. If I remember correctly, he was off-duty in Calcutta and had been to the cinema one evening with a mate and they were walking up a boulevard. A group of GI's appeared a distance behind them and started to follow. They were shouting insults and general name-calling at my dad and his mate. My Dad could hear the footsteps getting a bit faster as the GI's were closing the gap. It looked like a fight would be coming, outnumbered as they were by the Americans. Quietly, my Dad and his mate discussed their tactics. My dad would take the half on the left and his mate the half on the right. They would be overwhelmed of course, but they intended to make a fight of it and cause as much damage as they could beforehand. Hopefully, their SOE unarmed combat training would cause surprise and help a bit ! As it looked like things were about to reach a climax, they were passing the end of an alley when, out of the dark, came an urgent, whispering voice "Hi Jock, keep moving, we'll get the ********!". As they passed by and the GI's passed the alley too, suddenly, a group of charging British soldiers came hurtling out of the alley and completely caught the GI's unawares. They were Cameron Highlanders, veterans of the Burma campaign and they "got tore in". The GI's didn't stand a chance and soon an American truck came tearing up the street and the GI's made a beeline for it. As as parting shot, as the last GI was going over the tailgate, a Cameron grabbed the GI's "free" leg and gave it a hefty tug so his crotch slammed onto the steel edge, the painful effects of which are best imagined.

My Dad also recalled that some interesting chibs, dusters etc were scattered on the road, whoever they belonged to !

[barrieduncan]

I've had a chance to look at some earlier Standing Orders, one for both the 1st and 2nd Battalions, from 1903 and 1907 respectively. The other is from 1918, but unfortunately is for the 1st (Garrison) Battalion who were stationed out in India. Not your typical battalion and I would doubt that they accurately reflect the situation on any of the field battalions at that time.

I've concentrated on the sections that deal with the Pipes, Bugles, and Band. There may have been several other points listed under each one, but they usually dealt with general points such as the care of instruments etc so I saved myself some typing and focused purely on duties etc. I've also listed other sections before and after the Pipes, Bugles Bands etc to let you see where they fit into the Standing Orders. Here goes; I hope this will be of interest:

The Cameronians (1st Bn) 1903

XIII Sergeant-Major…
XIV Armourer-Sergeant…
XV Band

The Bandmaster assisted by the Band Sergeant is held responsible at all times for the conduct, and appearance of the Band, who are under his immediate control, and must immediately report any neglect or irregularity to the Adjutant or President of the Band Committee.

XVI Sergeant Bugler and Sergeant Piper

They are responsible for the appearance and conduct of the Buglers and Pipers who are under their immediate control; they will suffer no impropriety or irregularity of behaviour to escape unnoticed, reporting them immediately to the Adjutant or Officer who may have been named in Orders, to take special charge of the Buglers and Pipers, and they should, by constant practice and intelligent instruction, endeavour to reach a high state of excellence.

XVII Color-Sergeants
XVIII Non-Commissioned Officers


2nd Bn The Scottish Rifles 1907

Sergeant-Major…
Bandmaster

113. He is responsible for the discipline as well as the instruction of the band, and will attend and be responsible for the band when they play at any public place, or entertainment.

Master Tailor…
Armourer-Sergeant…
Master Shoemaker…
Pioneer-Sergeant…
Sergeant-Bugler and Sergeant-Piper

119. They are responsible for the appearance and conduct of the buglers and pipers, who are under their immediate control; they will suffer no impropriety or irregularity of behaviour to remain unnoticed, reporting them immediately to the Adjutant, or officer who may have been named in Orders to take special charge of the buglers and pipers
120. The pipe-major will be responsible that no piper plays in public without obtaining permission from the Adjutant.


Band

122. The sergeant of the band is held responsible at all times for the conduct and appearance of the band, who are under his immediate control, and must immediately report any neglect or irregularity to the President of the Band Committee or to the Adjutant.

…

126. When the band plays at Officers’ Mess, a list of music to be played will be furnished by the bandmaster to the Band President, who will cause it to be placed upon the mess table. No other music will be played unless by the order of the senior officer present.

Colour-Sergeants…
Non-Commissioned Officers…


1st (Garrison) Battalion Scottish Rifles 1918

Sergeant-Major…
Quartermaster Sergeant…
Orderly-Room Sergeant…
Armourer Sergeant…
Company Sergeant Major…
Company Quartermaster Sergeant…
Sergeant Piper

1. He is responsible for the training and efficiency of the pipers, and also for their conduct and appearance. He will at once report to the President of the Pipe Fund any damage, or deficiency in their clothing, equipment, or instruments.

The Sergeant Drummer

1. The sergeant drummer is responsible that the buglers and drummers are fully acquainted with every part of their duty, and particularly so with their duties when on guard.
2. He is responsible for their dress, and the cleanliness and regularity of their rooms, and will report to the Adjutant any irregularity which may occur.
3. He will be in charge of the band, buglers drummers and pipers on all parades and be responsible for their musical training
4…
5. He is responsible for the detailing of buglers for duty and that they are made acquainted with the hours for sounding various calls
…

Band
1. The sergeant drummer of the band is held responsible at all times for the conduct and appearance of the band, who are under his immediate control, and must immediately report any neglect or irregularity to the President of Band Committee, or to the Adjutant.



I notice the Bandmaster is mentioned both the 1st and 2nd Orders, as are the Sergeant Bugler and Sergeant Piper. In the 2nd Battalion SOs mention is made of the pipe-major - but only its not clear whether this is a seperate person or the term is used to refer to the Sergeant Piper.
the 1st (Garrison) Battalion SOs throw in the curve ball of Sergeant Drummer. As mentioned above, I don't think we can treat these SOs as a typical example of the Regiment at this time, but its all we (well, I) have access to from the 1914-18 period.

Clear as mud?

Barrie

[GRUMPY]

Thank you: a big typing task, and well worth-while.

I agree that the Garrison Bn. is not necessarily typical, but given the supposedly unhappy wedding of the 1st and 2nd Bns and their distinctive origins, I think there is bound to be a whiff of anarchy!

There is consistent mention of a band sergeant, and specifically [Garrison] as a drummer.

Perhaps the general solution to the question  "who leads the band on parade, when parading separately from the pipes and drums, and/ or the bugles" might be the band sergeant? Who better, provided he had some staff-twiddling training?

Dinner Call!

Will post this and regeret at leisure!

[barrieduncan]

It has certainly got me thinking! When time permits I would like to try and apply the SOs for the 1st and 2nd Battalions to photographs we have from those periods, to see what can be found from the uniform. I was looking at a 1st Bn photograph from 1903 of the Military Band. The CO and Adjutant and two others were wearing pill-box hats (forage cap?) while the rest of the men were wearing the glengarry with blackened badge. Of the two others in pill-box hats, one was clearly a Sergeant - perhaps the Band Sergeant spoke of in the SOs? The other showed no obvious rank insignia, wore a different tunic to the two officers, but was holding what looked very much like a baton - perhaps our Bandmaster?

There is a series of photographs taken of the 1st Bn at Maryhill Barracks around 1913/14, and in each of the various photographs the Pipe Major [4 chevrons and crown], Bugle Major [4 chevrons and bugle], and Bandmaster [with badge] can all be seen. I had thought that I had seen these ranks on show in earlier photographs, but after reading the above perhaps I was mistaken. I shall keep my eyes peeled and report back anything that confirms or refutes what's quoted above.

Cheers

Barrie

P.S. Regarding the amalgamation of 1881, perhaps it says something that the 1st Bn Standing Orders referred to above were titled 'Standing Orders: The Cameronians" while those of the 2nd Bn were titled "Standing Orders: 2nd Battalion The Scottish Rifles".

[GRUMPY]

barrieduncan, on 15 February 2012 - 08:35 PM, said:

It has certainly got me thinking! When time permits I would like to try and apply the SOs for the 1st and 2nd Battalions to photographs we have from those periods, to see what can be found from the uniform. I was looking at a 1st Bn photograph from 1903 of the Military Band. The CO and Adjutant and two others were wearing pill-box hats (forage cap?) while the rest of the men were wearing the glengarry with blackened badge. Of the two others in pill-box hats, one was clearly a Sergeant - perhaps the Band Sergeant spoke of in the SOs? The other showed no obvious rank insignia, wore a different tunic to the two officers, but was holding what looked very much like a baton - perhaps our Bandmaster?

There is a series of photographs taken of the 1st Bn at Maryhill Barracks around 1913/14, and in each of the various photographs the Pipe Major [4 chevrons and crown], Bugle Major [4 chevrons and bugle], and Bandmaster [with badge] can all be seen. I had thought that I had seen these ranks on show in earlier photographs, but after reading the above perhaps I was mistaken. I shall keep my eyes peeled and report back anything that confirms or refutes what's quoted above.

Cheers

Barrie

P.S. Regarding the amalgamation of 1881, perhaps it says something that the 1st Bn Standing Orders referred to above were titled 'Standing Orders: The Cameronians" while those of the 2nd Bn were titled "Standing Orders: 2nd Battalion The Scottish Rifles".

Many thanks. If you would like informed analysis of regimental photos, I would offer my services and [without consulting him!] Frogsmile. Whereas there are Forum experts on Great War uniforms to run rings round me, I reckon between Mr F and I we won't miss much from pre-1914. Rank and appointment badges are my "thing".
Regarding Director of Music versus Bandmaster versus Band Sergeant full dress:

The D of M if any would usually be frock-coated and wear officer's hat [although not sure of Cameronian equiv. of frock coat; the BM was a WO, and would have a large wreath harp crown badge lower right, and cuff and collar lace; the BS would also wear the staff cap if worn regimentally, extra collar and cuff lace, and three chevrons upper right with either a small version of BM badge OR the massive earlier 'trophy' of harp, trumpets and crown.

Feel free to PM and I will give you my e-mail.